Curious What You Guys Think About This - Ich Related

[nuxx]

Had five white spots pop up on my Yellow Bellied Blue Tang and one on my Black Tang.

After 24 hours, none on the Black and one on the Blue. Didn't really look granular and went away so fast, so not sure if Ich. Not sure what else it could have been though...

Edited June 30, 2014 by nuxx
removed link to external discussion thread

[mFrame]

Please post the content here rather than linking to discussion threads on other forums. We'd like to be able to see the complete discussion here for archive purposes rather than having dependencies to other sites where possible.

[nuxx]

Please post the content here rather than linking to discussion threads on other forums. We'd like to be able to see the complete discussion here for archive purposes rather than having dependencies to other sites where possible.

No problem, sorry about that

---------------------------------------------------------------

Just checking to see what the overall thoughts of Ich (Cryptocaryon) always being present in marine tanks.

I've gone back and forth over the years about this, but now am starting to think it's always there, no matter what you do...

Going into my new tank I had three existing fish:

Yellow Tang, Yellow Bellied Blue Tang and Black Ice Clown

I've had the fish for about 3 years, all since less than an inch in size. They have never had any signs of Ich in that time. They were in a very slow stress environment though.

My new tank 120x29x31" was setup and run with just cured dry rock and sand for over two months before any livestock was added.

First livestock to go in were a Tomini Tang and a trio of Pajama Cardinals. They all came from Diver's Den and then went through 6-7 weeks or quarantine. Nothing was ever spotted on them during QT time. Went through three treatments of PraziPro.

Next I QTed a Black Tang, Purple Tang and Chevron Tang. All in separate tanks. 6-7 weeks again, no signs of anything. Did three rounds of PraziPro as well. At the same time I did three rounds of Prazi to the Yellow, Yellow Bellied Blue and Black Ice clown in my old tank.

Added all the fish in together.

It has been around 7 weeks since I added those newer fish into the tank. There has been a little aggression. The Black Tang will chase the Purple Tang around for 30 minutes before lights out. I've noticed a nipped fin here and then on the Purple. No slash marks from scalpels or anything serious like that.

Two days ago I noticed a decent sized bite mark on the top fin of the Black Tang. Only fish big enough to do that is the Yellow Bellied Blue Tang.

That night before we had a party to go to I noticed the Yellow Bellied Blue and Black Tangs had some white spots on them. One on the Black and five on the Yellow Bellied Blue.

My heart just sank. I did everything right and was so careful. When I was QTing the last round of fish, I even had separate food containers and feeding tongs for each of the 5 running tanks.

Thoughts of taking out all fish, QTing with copper or hypo came to my mind. Then having the tank running fishless for 16 weeks.

After some reading and being talked off the ledge by my wife I started to think Ich must always be in the tank. There was no way it could have got past my QT procedure.

The Black and Purple Tangs were super stressed in QT. Losing most of their color and even the purple having various spasms when I was around. The Chevron came with a big bite on it, so it was stressed as well. During these conditions over 7-8 weeks, Ich would have shown up if they were the carriers.

Instead of going crazy and tearing down the tank I just made sure to add garlic and Zoe to the Nori I feed yesterday morning. Also I picked up some Dr G's anti-parasitic food for their dinner.

This morning the Black Tang's fin is pretty much healed and it's spot is gone and the Yellow Bellied Blue Tang is down from 5 spots to 1 faint spot. Funny thing is that the Black and Yellow Bellied Blue Tangs are the fattest and most healthy fish in the tank. Definitely get their fill each feeding.

I also discovered than the Black and Yellow Bellied Blue Tangs sleep about 3 inches away from each other at night, with the Purple Tang about 10 inches away. Found this out when I came back the night I saw the spots and turned the lights on late.

I have been slacking on feeding. Just doing un-treated Nori each morning and 5 times a week untreated Formula 1 and Formula 2 flakes. 2 times a week I'd feed Mysis with Selcon. From now on I'm going to do treated Nori each day with mixes of Dr Gs (If Spots show), Rods Original, Spirulina, Formula 1 and 2 and treated Mysis.

To sum up:

I'm starting to think Ich is always present in the tank. A moment of high stress seems to bring it around. Better nutrition and time seems to ward it off.

Would love to hear what everyone thinks about this. Heard of lots of people saying fish like Achilles Tangs will get Ich pop up every time a new fish is introduced (Stress), then going away in a day or two.

Also would love to hear if anyone has gone fishless for 8-16 weeks, QTed fish and had Ich return.

[Neon Reefer]

I am sure you will get a vast variety of opinion on this matter. And opinion it will be. Personally i have no experience with an Iche breakout. But i am of the opinion that most fish beinmg kept have been exposed to the Iche bacteria and therefore the vast majority of tanks have also been exposed.

Further my opinion is that Iche is stress related. A fish that becomes stressed may begin to ehibit Iche like systoms, much like the vast majority of us carry the shingles virous and only a percenrae of us will ever demonstrate the symptoms of the condition. Doctors will tell patients that it can be stress induced.

The difficult reasoning is how some breakouts are mild and others are killers. Some resolve themselves and othetres require treatment. I must assume that most of this is related to the type of fish as well as there overall health.

But the idea of maintaining an iche free enviroment is quite hard to imagine. Iche can come in on everything we put in our tanks. Nothing is excluded. From fish to inverts to inantimate objects being used between tanks, including our arms. What good is it to quaranteen inverts and coral which will never demonstrate a symptom to begin with. Experts question the 8 week fallow period. It is suggested that iche can survive for up to 8 months in a sandbed.

Hard to beleive it is not in my tank. I choose to keep fish more hearty and resistant to iche and not stress them. But I am not an advocate for not quaranteeing fish as they carry many other deseases as well

[nuxx]

Experts question the 8 week fallow period. It is suggested that iche can survive for up to 8 months in a sandbed.

That's interesting. Only recent addition was some bagged crushed coral I added for areas where my sand was getting blown off.

Florida Crushed Coral in a bag, which was rinsed with a lot of tap water.

Still not 100% sure it was Ich, since it didn't look like it to me... but what else had slightly raised white spots? Also could Ich disappear 24 hours after it's first appearance?

[FarmerTy]

+1 to Neon Reefer

To those who want to try to eliminate it completely, I say knock yourself out with running fallow for 8 weeks but its just going to get introduced through another source. A frag from someone else, a net you used from your quarantine to your display. Have I lost a fish to ich... perhaps, but to me, I'm sure there was a bigger problem that resulted in its death and the ich just finished it off.

Ich to me is like the flu, if you're immune system is compromised whether through stress or another reason, the flu might kill you. But on otherwise happy and healthy individuals, you will most likely beat it most of the time. Will I run around my house and try to disinfect everything to keep the flu virus out, no, it's not feasible to me nor I do I feel it possible to control. I feel the same way about ich... why waste all the energy and effort when it only becomes a real problem when the health of the fish are already compromised by something else.

I had a full blown ich attach when I upgraded my tank. The fish looked like they had fuzzy white sweaters on. Did any die? Yes, 2. Do I feel the need to QT my entire system now and run fallow, no. Of the 2 that died, one was already battling flukes and the other I can't exactly point out why but it probably had some other issue going on too!

[nuxx]

+1 to Neon Reefer

The one time I have seen Ich was when I was brand new.

Had an almost complete tank crash due to not fully cured live rock.

When the fish were on their last legs they developed full blown Ich. Already lost most of their color etc... was able to save one clown, but the rest died. The clown was taken out and I replaced all the rock, sand, water etc... and the fish got over the Ich when reintroduced. I didn't treat with copper/hypo etc...

Also I really want to add one or two Achilles (one hybrid) and a Zebra down the line. I know the Achilles WILL have Ich. I sort of feel even with hypo / copper it will always be there with an Achilles. Something I have to come to terms with.

As for my current tangs, I really need to add some dither fish to take attention away from all the tangs. Would like to add a pair of Crosshatch Triggers, but feel they might eat smaller fish I add, unless I add the Crosshatches near last.

Any ideas of fish that could help lower stress and distract tangs? It's not crazy aggression, but there is some chasing and nipping going on.

[FarmerTy]

Fairy wrasses? Anthias? A school of chromis?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

[nuxx]

Fairy wrasses? Anthias? A school of chromis?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Was thinking some Wrasses and Anthias.

Wife really wants a Leopard Wrasse, I was thinking to try two Cleaners and see if one makes it through QT.

Anthias might be a good addition too. Also maybe a Copperbanded Butterfly?

[Timfish]

I don't think you have ich for these reasons: As I understand it you only had spots for a couple of days and only very few spots at that. While some of the adult parasites may mature in just 3 days most take longer so I would expect to see some spots for a more extended time. Additionally, in my experience Regal Tangs, Paracanthurus hepatus, (or whatever else you may call them) are drama queens and hypochondriacs. I would very much like to see more research on these fish but I'm guessing they have something unique about their scales and or skin as they often get spots on a regular basis. That I have seen these spots stay in exactly the same place for weeks or disappear after only a day or two then weeks later reappear in exactly the same spot tells me the spots are not ich even though they may supperficially look like it.

Here's a refference on the liffe cycle of ich: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

With regards to the 8 week fallow period does anybody know the research supporting that? The University of Florida paper specifies the theront or cyst stage take as long as 72 days weeks to mature and release larva. It also points out under lower temperatures the cyst stage can become dormant and remain viable for 5 months but I'm pretty sure that would not apply to our reef tanks.

Having used UV sterlizers to clear up ich in a system then add fish that are "ich magnets" with no recurrence or more specifically have tangs that mature and try to take each other out and not have ich show up on VERY stressed out fish I am convienced both an aquarium that has had ich can be successfully cleared with the use of UV sterilizers and no fish that is stressed out should get ick.

[nuxx]

I don't think you have ich for these reasons: As I understand it you only had spots for a couple of days and only very few spots at that. While some of the adult parasites may mature in just 3 days most take longer so I would expect to see some spots for a more extended time. Additionally, in my experience Regal Tangs, Paracanthurus hepatus, (or whatever else you may call them) are drama queens and hypochondriacs. I would very much like to see more research on these fish but I'm guessing they have something unique about their scales and or skin as they often get spots on a regular basis. That I have seen these spots stay in exactly the same place for weeks or disappear after only a day or two then weeks later reappear in exactly the same spot tells me the spots are not ich even though they may supperficially look like it.

Thanks Tim, I've read about "stress spots" on tangs. Are you talking about that maybe?

So...

- Saturday night I noticed the spots.

- Sunday added garlic, zoe and Dr G's food.

- Monday down to one spot on the Blue, none on the black.

- Tuesday no spots on anyone.

I'm guessing Ich would hang around longer or spread fish before going away completely?

Also, the spots were not granular, is Ich always granular in appearance?

[Neon Reefer]

Maybe not the scientific experts but knowlegable and long time advanced hobbiest

This information is brought to you by the Pet Professionals at:

The Pet Advantage

350 Dorset St.

So. Burlington, Vermont

860-1714

Ich

What causes Ich?

Ich is considered the common cold of fish. Just like germs that make humans

sick, parasites are always present to attack fish. In a healthy situation a fish’s

normal immune system will protect it against these attacks.

When your fish becomes “stressed’ its immune system breaks down and the ich

parasite is able to make your fish sick. Just about every fish has been exposed

to the parasite at one time or another and may be a carrier. There are 3 common

causes of ”stress” for your fish:

1) General water quality, ammonia in particular. High ammonia level is the #1

cause of “stress”, ich and death.

2) Temperature drop of more than 3º as in transporting the fish. Keeping fish too

cold (below 75°) will increase the chances of ich.

3) Fighting between fish, especially new fish and old fish will increase the

chances of ich.

What are the symptoms of Ich?

Ich appears as tiny white spots on the body, fins or gills. These white spots

usually look like grains of salt. Ich does not kill quickly. Fish are usually infected

for 5-7 days before they will start to die.

Why do new fish get Ich more often?

People usually want to blame the new fish, or say a new fish was ill. In most

cases a new fish will get Ich first because the water in its new home is different

than what it was used to and they have just been through the stress of being

transported. The older fish in the tank have a chance to “acclimate” to the water

as it slowly changes. If your water quality were deteriorating each day, after a

week it would be too poor for the fish to remain healthy. Established fish may not

notice this because it was a gradual change. For new fish they could be

experiencing a drastic change in water chemistry in just a few hours. It then spreads to the other fish.

How do I treat Ich?

To treat Ich effectively you must first get rid of the stress that caused Ich. Always

assume it’s the water quality until we can rule that out. The best method is to

have your water tested to determine its condition. We will test your water in our

store or you can purchase a test kit for your home. Never use a cheap test kit

since you will not get accurate results. If you cannot get your water tested within

24 hours do a 1/3 water change just to be safe. After we correct the environment

we can safely medicate the water.

1) It is best to raise the temperature to 80-84 degrees. This will make the Ich

parasite grow quicker which will make it more sensitive to medication.

2) Begin treatment with a proven Ich medication. We recommend “Quick Cure”.

3) Remove the carbon from your filter. Carbon will absorb some of the

medication so it is best to run your filter without carbon during this time.

4) Treat until you have not seen any spots on the fish for 48 hours. Do a ½ water

change after medicating. Put fresh carbon back in the filter. Monitor your fish

for 1 week. If the spots do not reappear it is safe to add fish again.

Hints:

1) Follow the instructions on your medication carefully. Scaleless fish, tetras and

other characins may need a lower dosage.

2) If your fish are very lethargic or breathing heavily, do a 1/3 water change and

have us test the water immediately.

3) Some fish are more susceptible to ich such as neons and other tetras, clown

loaches and oscars. Fortunately studies have shown that fish can develop

immunity to ich after having had it and survived.

4) Ich takes 5-7 days to kill your fish. It is easy to cure if you identify it and treat it

quickly.

[Makena95GT]

Maybe not the scientific experts but knowlegable and long time advanced hobbiest

This information is brought to you by the Pet Professionals at:

The Pet Advantage

350 Dorset St.

So. Burlington, Vermont

860-1714

Ich

What causes Ich?

Ich is considered the common cold of fish. Just like germs that make humans

sick, parasites are always present to attack fish. In a healthy situation a fish’s

normal immune system will protect it against these attacks.

When your fish becomes “stressed’ its immune system breaks down and the ich

parasite is able to make your fish sick. Just about every fish has been exposed

to the parasite at one time or another and may be a carrier. There are 3 common

causes of ”stress” for your fish:

1) General water quality, ammonia in particular. High ammonia level is the #1

cause of “stress”, ich and death.

2) Temperature drop of more than 3º as in transporting the fish. Keeping fish too

cold (below 75°) will increase the chances of ich.

3) Fighting between fish, especially new fish and old fish will increase the

chances of ich.

What are the symptoms of Ich?

Ich appears as tiny white spots on the body, fins or gills. These white spots

usually look like grains of salt. Ich does not kill quickly. Fish are usually infected

for 5-7 days before they will start to die.

Why do new fish get Ich more often?

People usually want to blame the new fish, or say a new fish was ill. In most

cases a new fish will get Ich first because the water in its new home is different

than what it was used to and they have just been through the stress of being

transported. The older fish in the tank have a chance to “acclimate” to the water

as it slowly changes. If your water quality were deteriorating each day, after a

week it would be too poor for the fish to remain healthy. Established fish may not

notice this because it was a gradual change. For new fish they could be

experiencing a drastic change in water chemistry in just a few hours. It then spreads to the other fish.

How do I treat Ich?

To treat Ich effectively you must first get rid of the stress that caused Ich. Always

assume it’s the water quality until we can rule that out. The best method is to

have your water tested to determine its condition. We will test your water in our

store or you can purchase a test kit for your home. Never use a cheap test kit

since you will not get accurate results. If you cannot get your water tested within

24 hours do a 1/3 water change just to be safe. After we correct the environment

we can safely medicate the water.

1) It is best to raise the temperature to 80-84 degrees. This will make the Ich

parasite grow quicker which will make it more sensitive to medication.

2) Begin treatment with a proven Ich medication. We recommend “Quick Cure”.

3) Remove the carbon from your filter. Carbon will absorb some of the

medication so it is best to run your filter without carbon during this time.

4) Treat until you have not seen any spots on the fish for 48 hours. Do a ½ water

change after medicating. Put fresh carbon back in the filter. Monitor your fish

for 1 week. If the spots do not reappear it is safe to add fish again.

Hints:

1) Follow the instructions on your medication carefully. Scaleless fish, tetras and

other characins may need a lower dosage.

2) If your fish are very lethargic or breathing heavily, do a 1/3 water change and

have us test the water immediately.

3) Some fish are more susceptible to ich such as neons and other tetras, clown

loaches and oscars. Fortunately studies have shown that fish can develop

immunity to ich after having had it and survived.

4) Ich takes 5-7 days to kill your fish. It is easy to cure if you identify it and treat it

quickly.

I love that explination. People are always quick to blame the store saying all of our fiah have ick and after they added a new fish it showed signs and everythinf died -.-