Bpb Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 So I've grown tired of the space limitations of my 55 gallon. More than that though, I have failed miserably at controlling 3 things I'd rather not have, that are hindering my coral'a ability to encrust in many places. Halimeda, bubble algae, and aiptasia. Tried kalk paste, peppermints, emerald crabs, aiptasia x, currently running gfo, carbon, and biopellets. Just can't seem to shake any of it and it grows more and more. I'd like to do a full tank upgrade. Apex, dosers, powerheads, skimmer, return pump, basically everything manufactured can stay with a good cleaning, but I really want a 75/90 gallon display, and all new dry Pukani rock and sand. Affording the new tank no big deal. The problem is I want to keep most of my current livestock. Especially the fish, sps, and zoas. Is this unrealistic? Will I likely transfer over some bubble algal spores or aiptasia spores with my current stock, even if I cut them from the rocks? Also...the biggest limitation: I cannot set up a new tank entirely and transfer it all slowly piece by piece and mix the water, as that would defeat the whole point. Also i simply don't have the room in my house to set up two tanks side by side. That won't work. So going about it like JeeperTy did is out. I'd have to cycle the rock remotely and once it's "live" do a single day transfer, provided I were able to match salinity, temperature, calcium, alk, mag, and ph. Am I being entirely unrealistic? Will freshly cured rock lack the nitrifying and denitrifying power of my several year old rock? To the point that I may lose some fish or sps because of it? I'd hate to scrap the whole idea, but unfortunately having two tanks running, or a fish sitter hold my stock for me isn't workable. I'm too far away from you guys lol. Hoping someone will have some ideas or suggestions. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsalt Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 The first thing is of course that the new rock you put will not have any of the same bacteria level as your old rock. After it is cured it just isn't going to have the same levels. You could add the bacteria in a bottle, I have actually had great luck with it, your problem here is that you still can't dump all of your livestock into the tank at once. You will still have to wait for the tank to mature nad do a little at a time. Do you have the ability to cure rock in bins at your house in the garage maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 i'd look into dips for your current rock, corals, etc that will kill the algae. on jeeper's advice i recently dipped a zoa in 50% peroxide/50% tank water for 4 minutes (his advice was google and that's what i found). so far it seems to have killed the algae. the zoa was not happy for a week or more, but seems to have come out ok. as for the filtration of live rock, i'm sure that the newer rock will be less good at it, but you will have the advantage of 50% to 100% more water to dilute it so it will effectively be half as stocked as it was. but, that is all i can offer. i don't really know whether that will be good enough or not. i'm sure it also depends on how well your newly cured rock is and the sensitivity of the livestock. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 Mad salt nailed what my plan was. I was going to cure the rock and sand in plastic bins with very heavy hands. Basically planned to use a lot more than the recommended one table shrimp. Just still curious that it may not be adequate. I'm mostly worried about spores traveling over with fish or coral tissue. I'd be disheartened to go trough all the trouble only to fail. Definitely may try the peroxide dips (minus the sps). I am actually most concerned with the aiptasia. I've read just about every remedy known to man and none have worked for me. They're spreading so fast now. I find a few new ones almost daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsalt Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Is it possible for algae spores to carry over with fish? I understand that the fish will come out of the water and into the new tank but the odds of a spore and some type of aptaisa would be slim to none I would guess. Are your corals attached to the rocks or on plugs, or both? This where my concern would be. If the corals are on plugs, you can just pick off the bubble algae, that is what I did when bought some that had it. I am by no means an algae/aptasia expert but I would imagine you would have far less problems with all new rock and sand. A careul inspection of the corals before they move in to the new tank would go along way to elimating the problem I would guess. Like I said you could always use the bacteria in a bottle to kick off the bacteria process along with the shrimp. As long as that bacteria has something to feed on, it will be good to go. The downside to all new rock and sand is the amount of potential diversity you get. I certainly see the lack of it in my tank and really want to expand that part of it. One additinal thing I would think about is using a portion of your current sand to help seed things. I highly doubt you will bring any aptasia or the bubble algae along with it, this isn't to say it isn't possible. While the sand and rock are curing, make sure there are no lights for the algae to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I gotta tag along on this one as I too may benefit from the insight here in a slightly different way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 Yeah most the sps started on plugs but have engulfed them and encrusted onto the rock. I'd not be opposed to cutting them from their bases and only transferring over live tissue. The stuff that would make me sad to lose would be the zoas (aiptasia and bubble algae both hide between the polyps real well). I'd say about 75% of the aiptasia I have will take up residence among zoa polyps. As far as a bit of biodiversity I have no issue purchasing a variety of live pod cultures. I also have a lot of sponges and such lining the walls of my dark sump that I'm sure would be safe to scrape off and add over. Biodiversity I've got and it will be a shame to lose, but I'm hoping I could build that back up over time, but keep the pests out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 You could always cycle your rock in Patricks big system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manny Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I just thought of this, once I transfer everything over to my 75 gallon, you could always setup my 29 gallon in your garage. It doesn't take up much room and I have the skimmer for it and all. You could move the zoas in there and treat them until they are ready to go into your new setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) That's certainly not the worst idea I've heard manny. Though I think the temperature fluctuations might be a bit much. Maybe I'll just accept that I've got aiptasia and bubble algae and just upgrade anyway and replace my halimeda infested rocks. That would be manageable. I got a tremendous boost of confidence when I was reading a RC thread about a guy with a 75 gallon and only 4 t5 bulbs as his entire ligjting and he had some of the best looking deep colored acropora I've seen on the web, and upon closer inspection there was green bubble algae present in pretty much every picture. Happy to hear any more thoughts or ideas people may have. I'll keep setting aside my pennies and nickels until something good comes up. Though I'm beginning to accept that my original goal just may not be realistic. Don't know many people who have filled a tank with acropora colonies and my heavy fish stock (as well as those who depend on pods) using all freshly cured dry rock and sand. Edited March 6, 2014 by Bpb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano Reefer Ky Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 If you are wanting to upgrade and start over at the same time I think you are on the right track. I don't see any problems cycling your rock and sand in a really big tub. Put a power head in the tub to keep things moving and throw in a couple shrimps or just use fish food. As long as you are adding as much ammonia to the curing rock as your fish will add later on you will get the same amount of nitrifying bacteria. You could use a bottle of live bacteria or a small piece of live rock from a trusted source to seed the new rock with bacteria. The rock will probably get ugly with diatoms and such but you want it to do that in the bucket instead of in your new tank. Once the diatome cycle is finished scrub and rinse the rock and I would say its ready to go. Of course the new rock won't work as well as the 2 year old rock but I believe it will keep you from losing livestock. As far as transfering the algae. I think your ok with fish not transfering the algae. Your problem will be with the corals. I think it will be literally impossible to keep all algae out of the new tank when you transfer the corals no matter how careful you are. Especially with zoas or say an LPS that has algae growing on its skeleton. With that being said you should be able to clean the plugs/corals as best you can when you transfer, and when the algae tries to establish itself in the new aquarium you attack it relentlessly. All your new rock will be uncharted territory and whatever algae does get into the new tank will have an easier time than normal to move in. I probably wouldn't transfer the zoas as long as they still have pests living between polyps. Maybe you could frag a few of the polyps to a new plug and just transfer the plug. You would lose lots of growth but you wouldn't trasnfer the pests and you would still get to somewhat keep it. Anyways just my opinion on the matter, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I got a tremendous boost of continence when I was reading a RC thread Well, whatever increases your flow should help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 I got a tremendous boost of continence when I was reading a RC threadWell, whatever increases your flow should help. Nice catch. I hadn't had my coffee yet. So I suppose that statement, while being mistaken, was fundamentally true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano Reefer Ky Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Don't know many people who have filled a tank with acropora colonies and my heavy fish stock (as well as those who depend on pods) using all freshly cured dry rock and sand. Maybe they forgot to update their thread letting everyone know of their loses?? Edited March 6, 2014 by Nano Reefer Ky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 i'd look into dips for your current rock, corals, etc that will kill the algae. on jeeper's advice i recently dipped a zoa in 50% peroxide/50% tank water for 4 minutes (his advice was google and that's what i found). so far it seems to have killed the algae. the zoa was not happy for a week or more, but seems to have come out ok. If that's the case, I have an answer for everything... blah blah blah... just Google it. You're welcome! Haha. Btw, I've found that a 1:3 ratio of peroxide to tank water for about 5-7 minutes was less harsh and was effective for killing algae off zoa plugs and rocks. Good thing peroxide is cheap too! You can also just use a pipette or a plastic syringe to squirt pure peroxide (meaning 3%, undiluted) on the rocks while they are out of the water and trying to avoid the zoas. That works as well. Depends on your level of infestation. But if it's just zoas, live rock, and algae, I'd dunk that whole rock in the 1:3 diluted peroxide and call it a day. Observe it and if you see some growth coming back in a week or so, do it one more time and you should be solid. SPS, just snap at the base and leave the encrusted part and reglue somewhere else. For aiptasia, personally I've had no luck with any of the aiptasia chemicals as I feel like they kill the main polyp but cause it to release spores or gametes. Almost better to leave the one alone instead of injuring it and causing it to split multiple times. Only luck I had was physical removal (cutting piece of rock off or chipping) and luckily for me now, a hungry copperband butterfly fish. I am aiptasia free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Perhaps I'll take a chunk of the "led upgrade" money I was gonna use and buy a handful of peppermints instead lol. That won't put much of a dent in that fund anyway. Not even going with LEDs so I got money to spend woohoo. Where's that Egyptian guy "making it rain" gif when I need it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Peppermints make excellant natural removers of Aptasia infestations. When big Aptasia are too daunting for the shrimp to remove, I use a small insulin neddle and inject 3% peroxide into tissue. The effects are instantaneous. The tissue is dissolved away into the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 While my intention was not to have this be an aiptasia control thread entirely I absolutely appreciate the advice and I'll be bringing home a tb syringe from work today and trying the peroxide injection. I've had it with aiptasia x as it had been a resounding failure. I figured at this point I'll try anything. Can't get worse. Truthfully I don't mind the bubble algae all that much in moderation. It's when it forms a 1" thick mat covering the rock in between corals that it bothers me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nano Reefer Ky Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Make an aiptasia zapper. Here is a link to a DIY from another forum I'm a member of. http://www.3reef.com/forums/i-made/diy-aiptasia-killer-using-electrolysis-103865.html Supposedly it works well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvrEnuf Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 This conversation is like a lot of others in this hobby: Lets talk root causes! I have an empty 29G QT up and running you can leave some stock in for awhile if you like. You might want to frag any super rare or expensive items and have someone store them as insurance. As to the aptasia I don't really worry with them. I found that as phosphate decreased so did they and at this point I hadn't even thought about them until I saw this thread. Though, I think the emeralds may be eating them. This was also true on my first tank - as phosphates decreased so did aptasia. Now, I do have to admit some of my softies are not doing superb as of late...the fastest growers a year ago when this tank was "new" (meaning a 2 week transfer from the previous) Softies initially went nuts; but so were most "bad" nutrients as the tank settled in. Aptasia came back but I didn't do anything about it. A year later - toadstool not grown at all in three weeks but a birdsnest found in a cave pretty much dead three weeks ago now has color back and is showing growth ?!?! I guess my point here is that while I don't agree all tanks have ich or even aptasia, I do think all tanks have "disagreeables" I don't try to remove every single disagreeable out of the tank, I address them as a whole. i.e. If I see a single ich spot on a single fish in the DT I assume all fish all now carriers. I don't believe you can address aptasia one at a time (personally I think that makes it worse). Moves are always difficult; good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 While I'm all about the "treat the cause not the pest" analogy, unfortunately the aiptasia were introduced very early on, before I had a true appreciation for how invasive they can be. And unfortunately they are all originating from a rock that my big toadstool is on. I've considered taking some bone cutters, a chisel, and my dremel and surgically removing it from that rock so I can keep it but automatically remove about 100 aiptasia. Bubble algae... Well let's just say that much like halimeda, bubble algae can grow in nearly sterile water. I'm fearful of running any more aggressive phosphate and nitrate removal beyond what I do. I think all my corals would react poorly as I'm already running biopellets, gfo, and carbon. It's a case of what do I want more...no pests or healthy corals...hurting one tends to hurt the others and vice versa. I really can tolerate a little but i suppose I just need to get my hands in the water more and actively remove stuff as it starts crowding out the desirable livestock. Vermatids hair algae, small amounts of bryopsis, hell even cyano I can tolerate in small amounts. I think a sterile tank with zero algae likely will mean that something good is also suffering. All of which I've had at one point or another. All of it died off after i brought on biopellets, but once they matured, and I had to increase my feedings, that's when the aiptasia really blew up and went from one or two that kept running from me for almost 2 years, to a hundred or more. Over the course of a couple weeks. All advice I've read is "leave biopellets alone and ignore the growin pains and it'll be great once it matures". That's been tough to do as I've considered taking them offline. Trying to avoid any knee jerk reactions though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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