Macro,fertilizer

[subsea]

More and more reefkeepers are finding out that macro will consume nutrients at an alarming rate. To the point of depleting available nutrients and going sexual. In the past, I have dosed with iron, calcium nitrate and most recently Austins Clear Ammonia at $4 a gallon.

While shopping at Home Depot, I found kelp concentrate in the garden center. The major nutrients are

13-0-6. No phosphate. In the past, I used Ironite without phosphate. When macro grows it uses calcium, magnesium and phosphate as major nutrients and iron, coper, zinc, molybdenum, manganese, and sulfur as minor nutrients.

As a generalization, from a reefkeepers pont of view, nitrogen is 15% and phosphate is 1% of macro dry weight. Alaska Pure Kelp Concentrate supplies everything that macro needs but phosphate. When you use this fertilizer to accelerate macro growth, the overall removal of phosphate from tank water takes place. The product cost $10 for 32 oz.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

[Planeden]

not too many people advocating adding nitrate to the tank.

as you know, i some of my macro went all sexual yesterday and i pulled a clump out. i just tested my water and have no measurable nitrates or phosphates. which i suppose is a good and bad thing, right. i haven't changed anything feeding, lighting, etc. in a while. but, i suppose that the filtration in the substrate and rock is maturing (7 months) so it is also competing with my formally thriving macros. the stuff in the sump is still growing and healthy, but the rate has slowed considerably in the last few months. at least cut in half.

i must say, i am having a bit of a chuckle that i set up a lagoon in part so i wouldn't have to worry about keeping my water so clean and wouldn't have to dose. now i may end up having to dose in order for my water to be dirty enough for the filters.

note: i should probably add that my API test kits give me a phosphate color of 0 ppm and 0.25 ppm and nitrates 0 ppm and 5 ppm. i am definitely not reading it down to the 0.01 ppm range the fancy test are.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Planeden

[subsea]

As I have a reliable nitrate meter, it is very easy for me to control dosing. If you read the major, minor and micro nutrients in the kelp concentrate you will see a very inclusive recipe for not only macro algae but for coral also.

Patrick

[jestep]

You could probably experiment with a modified version of estimated index dosing that we use in CO2 planted tanks.

Basically dosing potassium nitrate and dipotassium phosphate on alternating days. IN FW you then do a 50% water change once a week to reset the dosing cycle. That's where it would need to be modified for saltwater so you aren't doing 50% water changes per week, but bulk KNO3 and KH2PO4 are really cheap and you could directly control the nitrate and phosphate levels entering the tank.

[+Grog]

Not to derail the thread but isn't it odd that three of us had similar events so closely? I'm still wondering if some macros have 'seasons'. Maybe January is the time for this caulerpa to explode in the wild.

[subsea]

not too many people advocating adding nitrate to the tank.

as you know, i some of my macro went all sexual yesterday and i pulled a clump out. i just tested my water and have no measurable nitrates or phosphates. which i suppose is a good and bad thing, right. i haven't changed anything feeding, lighting, etc. in a while. but, i suppose that the filtration in the substrate and rock is maturing (7 months) so it is also competing with my formally thriving macros. the stuff in the sump is still growing and healthy, but the rate has slowed considerably in the last few months. at least cut in half.

i must say, i am having a bit of a chuckle that i set up a lagoon in part so i wouldn't have to worry about keeping my water so clean and wouldn't have to dose. now i may end up having to dose in order for my water to be dirty enough for the filters.

note: i should probably add that my API test kits give me a phosphate color of 0 ppm and 0.25 ppm and nitrates 0 ppm and 5 ppm. i am definitely not reading it down to the 0.01 ppm range the fancy test are.

Actually, there are many advanced reef forums that advocate dosing nitrates.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/pax-bellum-llc/157340-what-arid-how-does-work.html

[subsea]

You could probably experiment with a modified version of estimated index dosing that we use in CO2 planted tanks.

Basically dosing potassium nitrate and dipotassium phosphate on alternating days. IN FW you then do a 50% water change once a week to reset the dosing cycle. That's where it would need to be modified for saltwater so you aren't doing 50% water changes per week, but bulk KNO3 and KH2PO4 are really cheap and you could directly control the nitrate and phosphate levels entering the tank.

In my outside macro growout systems, I would not need to do the water change because nutrient export is accomplished with macro harvesting. The ground water at 900' in the Middle Trinity Aquifer is void of phosphate but is high in calcium and magnesium to the point of being limewater.

Thanks for the idea.

Patrick

[subsea]

Not to derail the thread but isn't it odd that three of us had similar events so closely? I'm still wondering if some macros have 'seasons'. Maybe January is the time for this caulerpa to explode in the wild.

I lean toward seasons for everything. However, in our three cases, the trigger was depleted nutrients with a very fast growing macro. If Chaeto was in our tanks it would not have happened.

Patrick

[Planeden]

i wonder if this will get me laughed out of the room (metaphoically, clearly). i wonder if i topped off my tank with water change water from my unplanated FW tank, if that would dose it well enough? i haven't tested the water in a while, but based on past experience, i'd guess it is at least 40 ppm nitrate (possibly up to 80 ppm). but that would give me a dose of about 1 ppm nitrate each day. if my math is right. 40 ppm in one gallon diluted into a 50g system each day? 40 ppm * 1 gal / 50 gal = 1 ppm. one problem i see with this is that my FW tank will get cleaner and lower my dosage over time. (anyone laughing that my problem is a cleaner tank?)

alternately, i could add more fertilizer by adding more fish, right?

one change i did make in the last few weeks.. i added more CUC. so, you think that the snails eating the excess food may have reduced nutrients? i'm not sure if a mysis shrimp dissolving on the sandbed has more nitrate in it than 1 mysis shrimp coming out the back of the snail. i'm guessing it does.

[Planeden]

not too many people advocating adding nitrate to the tank.

as you know, i some of my macro went all sexual yesterday and i pulled a clump out. i just tested my water and have no measurable nitrates or phosphates. which i suppose is a good and bad thing, right. i haven't changed anything feeding, lighting, etc. in a while. but, i suppose that the filtration in the substrate and rock is maturing (7 months) so it is also competing with my formally thriving macros. the stuff in the sump is still growing and healthy, but the rate has slowed considerably in the last few months. at least cut in half.

i must say, i am having a bit of a chuckle that i set up a lagoon in part so i wouldn't have to worry about keeping my water so clean and wouldn't have to dose. now i may end up having to dose in order for my water to be dirty enough for the filters.

note: i should probably add that my API test kits give me a phosphate color of 0 ppm and 0.25 ppm and nitrates 0 ppm and 5 ppm. i am definitely not reading it down to the 0.01 ppm range the fancy test are.

Actually, there are many advanced reef forums that advocate dosing nitrates.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/pax-bellum-llc/157340-what-arid-how-does-work.html

yeah, that was kinda a joke at the expense of all the high tech guys. you have to admit, at least on ARC, you are outnumbered by a fair amount. but you are getting a cult following slowly coming up.

[subsea]

Yes, it is true that many at ARC focus on gadgets to perform husbandry. I like John Tullock's holistic approach in "The Natural Reef Aquarium": Less technology/More biology.

Patrick

[jestep]

I always found chemistry a lot easier than biology....

Or maybe I just don't have the patience not to mess with things and use that as an excuse

[Planeden]

I always found chemistry a lot easier than biology....

Or maybe I just don't have the patience not to mess with things and use that as an excuse

Exactly. Why spend time looking at the tank when you have all those gadgets to tweak.

[Timfish]

Not to derail the thread but isn't it odd that three of us had similar events so closely? I'm still wondering if some macros have 'seasons'. Maybe January is the time for this caulerpa to explode in the wild.

Good question. I've had a bubble coral that opened and closed everyday with the sun rising and setting (tank got some direct sunlight every morning just as the sun rose) not the 400 watt MH bulbs that came on in the afternoon and turned off at 10:00pm. I've also seen pH fluctuations affected by cloudy days even though the only windows in the room were north facing. It seems some of our animals are sensitive enough to detect what stikes me as subtle external variables why not algaes also?

(Something else to track for the next 5 - 30 years! )

[Timfish]

I need to go back through my magazines and find the article but back in the early '90's a proffessor wrote an article on cycling a 30 gallon aquarium with ammoinium chloride. He got curious what a simple wet/dry and reverse flow UG filter would do and kept increasing the ammonium chloride. in a very short time, weeks not months, he had a system that was handling the equivelant of a pound of food a day with out any measurable ammonia levels. I recently helped someone with a probelm when they moved their tank a second time in a year. Their RBTA and other animals were definitely not happy for more than a week after the move. Nitrates tested as more than 160 ppm using API. I did about a 15% water change with water from one of my older estalished tanks and in 12 days the nitrates dropped to maybe 10 ppm using the same test kit. They are very familair with using anaerobic bacteria to remove nitrate and knew what I did should not have done anything towards establishing or creating anaerobic conditions for the removal of nitrate. Looking at the problem of disappearing nitrates I'm reminded of something Julian Sprung said in his column "Reef Notes" more than 20 years ago to the effect there are aspects of keeping marine aquariums we "can only qualify, not quantify".

[Planeden]

@timfish: i'm totally confused by your friend's nitrates issue. nothing i thought i knew would make me think that would have any noticeable benefit. i'm going with dr. sprung on this one. "huh, it worked, whadaya know".

[+KimP]

Not to derail the thread but isn't it odd that three of us had similar events so closely? I'm still wondering if some macros have 'seasons'. Maybe January is the time for this caulerpa to explode in the wild.

Good question. I've had a bubble coral that opened and closed everyday with the sun rising and setting (tank got some direct sunlight every morning just as the sun rose) not the 400 watt MH bulbs that came on in the afternoon and turned off at 10:00pm. I've also seen pH fluctuations affected by cloudy days even though the only windows in the room were north facing. It seems some of our animals are sensitive enough to detect what stikes me as subtle external variables why not algaes also?

(Something else to track for the next 5 - 30 years! )

This is so interesting!