Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Could the years of neglect and using tap water ruined my rock and sandbed and be casuing all my recurring issues with algae? As you know from my other posts, my PO4 tests very low, but the algae grows on everything (powerheads, coral, overflow) including the glass which has to be cleaned every two or three days. I don't really want to start a new cycle, but I'm sure I can get my hands on some precycled rock and replace my old rock. Seems like a drastic measure, but I'll do whatever needs to done. Better to bite the bullet and do it now then to continue to have problems for years down the road. Sometimes I think the the best thing I could do is move everything to the QT and strip the DT down and start over. Doesn't Subsea sell some nice precured rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Let us assume that organic phosphate is the problem. Be aware that the water column only shows inorganic phosphate. The organic phosphate is in detrutus in your sandbed. In my opinion, organic phosphate will always go into the sandbed before it goes into the rock. Even when you don't see it, cynobacteria will be in the depths of your sandbed. From previous post, if I remember correctly, you reduced the depth of your sandbed from 4" to 1". What does the surface of your sandbed look like. In my 12 year old 75G Jaubert Plenumn, it took three months of serious vacuming before balance was achieved. In switching from MH with a canopy to open top tank with one slim BML, it was not such a chore to vacum. Patrick . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I also doubt the rock is causing algae blooms. Generally, LR doesn't absorb PO4 unless it is allowed to dry out or sits in very toxic water for a period of time. I'm not familiar with your situation, but I've never had a tank with GHA or cyano that didn't have elevated phosphates. I recently had cyano in my new tank for three months and it all disappeared two weeks after installing a protein skimmer. IMO starting over is a bit extreme. With some patience I think you can get the tank in shape. IF you do want to start over, then I wouldn't ditch the rock. I would disassemble the tank, replace ALL of the substrate, and then install the rock again. If I absolutely had to start over, no joking, from scratch, then I would buy uncured from from liveaquaria.com and cure it in the tank with dry sand or crushed coral, a protein skimmer from day one, filter socks changed daily, and a full photoperiod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct67stang Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Do you have any herbivores? Tangs took care of my hair algea Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 You could try swapping out the substrate and going completely fishless without any feeding or nutrient introduction and see where you're at in 3 - 6 months. Unless you have a bunch of big fish, you could pretty easily setup a temporary tank for the fish. The rock in my first tank I would say was ruined by the previous owner. I still do my water changes through it and the PO4 is off the chart after about 2 years. It is also almost completely hollow inside and the channels were packed full of detritus. I don't think this is common but it's a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Do you have good flow around the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 +1 to what subsea said. Pick yourself up one of these water changes and it'll help clean the sandbed easier. http://www.amazon.com/Aqueon-Aquarium-Water-Changer-Feet/dp/B000YAJKL6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 +1 to what subsea said. Pick yourself up one of these water changes and it'll help clean the sandbed easier. http://www.amazon.com/Aqueon-Aquarium-Water-Changer-Feet/dp/B000YAJKL6 The Aqueon product is awful. I have one and it kinks something fierce! Buy the python water changer or make one yourself from vinyl hose at HD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I still have my original python that I got when I setup my first tank over 20 years ago. I've had to replace the faucet adapter and a few other parts but it's an amazing product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 You could try Dr. Tim's Waste Away. Mr. Saltwater Tank swears by it. I do think that LR can leach PO4 if it had the opportunity to get packed with detritus. A lot of the LR we use is extremely porous and you may not even be able to see all the gunk that has settled in it. If you go slowly and swap out rocks one at a time, maybe one per month, you could probably do it. But there are other solutions, like Waste Away, a PO4 binding solution, heavy wet skimming, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Let us assume that organic phosphate is the problem. Be aware that the water column only shows inorganic phosphate. The organic phosphate is in detrutus in your sandbed. In my opinion, organic phosphate will always go into the sandbed before it goes into the rock. Even when you don't see it, cynobacteria will be in the depths of your sandbed. From previous post, if I remember correctly, you reduced the depth of your sandbed from 4" to 1". What does the surface of your sandbed look like. In my 12 year old 75G Jaubert Plenumn, it took three months of serious vacuming before balance was achieved. In switching from MH with a canopy to open top tank with one slim BML, it was not such a chore to vacum. Patrick . I started to replace my sand bed a few months back with cc, but only completed a small portion of it. I made a vacuum tool out of a large hose I had laying around and was vacuuming it out pretty easily. I believe the caution given was to go slow so I don't throw the tank into a cycle. However, I got caught up in other matters and never finished the job. I'll be getting a bit more aggressive with that over the next couple of weeks starting today since I'm off and it's not so cold out (I have to rinse the CC thoroughly) . Maybe do 25% of what's left today and then 25% a week until done. I'm guessing that I don't have to worry about what's under the rock, or should I get that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Jumping to the future, how do you keep the cc clean? Just stir it up with a stick once a week? if that's the case, how do you avoid disturbing the frags that are all spread out on the cc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 i would replace what is under the rock, too. i actually have my rock placed directly on the glass to avoid stability issues from burrowers. which seems like a good plan unless you are a frequent rescaper. i'm not saying i'm right, but i just vacuum or stir close to the frags on the ground. i suppose you could move them occasionally and clean under them. but you know...approximately 5% of my sand is covered by frags. i bet if i had nutrient issues that would be a very small factor and i have to do other things first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 You could remove and save all the water, carefully take out the rocks, and then remove all the sand at once. Add completely never been in water dry sand, rinse the heck out of it first, and then fill with the water you removed and you're good to go after the cloudiness is gone. I used brand new dry caribsea special grade sand when I did my tank upgrade and just saved as much water as possible. Since there's nothing that would decompose in dry sand you don't run the risk of causing a cycle assuming your rock has sufficient bacteria. I can't imagine that being any problem in your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I don't see why you have to remove the sand slowly. It sounds like you're removing all of the sand and replacing it with CC? That's not something you can really do one bag at a time. Remove all corals and place in a QT Remove all LR and place in a container, clean if desired Drain all water into the yard Remove all sand and dispose or recycle Clean tank and parts Aquascape Put in new CC Fill with fresh RO/DI SW Done! Wait for the parameters to stabilize, dip the corals and add them back into the tank. Aside from adding the corals the whole process should only take like 3 hours. If you want, you can wet skim for a few days but I don't think it's necessary. All the gunk that gets kicked up while removing the sand will exit the tank when you drain it and new CC won't start a cycle. You'll still have the biological filtration of your old rock and nothing on it should die if you keep it submerged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ask richardL how adding all that dry sand worked! It's not without risk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 CaribSea Florida Crushed Coral is coarse with a grain size between 2mm-5mm. I would get it down to 3/4" deep. I would not stir a shallow bed but instead would fan it aggressively. Many of the modern turbine pumps provide a nutrient control mode that pulsates water waves on substrate bottom. While this organic soup is in suspension, filter feeders and fish will feed vigorously. Also, mechanical and protein skimmers can remove debris from the water column. Do this at least once a day. When I set up DSB, I invest more time and money at the bottom of the food chain. This means the detrivores. Breeding snails like Florida Drawf Ceriths are always good at consuming cynobacteria where you never see it, in the substrate. They are my single most effective consumer of cyno and nuisance micro algae. Bristle worms are the most effective detrivore and will multiply in response to the food. With this corse substrate, pods will perform well as detrivores. Micro starfish will also provide valuable detrivore maintenance. I combine the above detrivores with a serpent starfish and some micro blue leg hermits. The above janitor crew will keep your shallow crushed coral substrate in good shape. Remember, this is nutrient recycling. Enjoy the ride. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Reefer Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I bet a $ to a donut that it is your bottom and not the rock. I only ever used crushed coral in my tanks. I've used Florida and Atlantic. I prefer the Atlantic over Florida because there is no shell in it and the size is far more uniform. More like little pelelts. it is mined and machined from acient coral beds and has benefits to help stabalize pH. But beware only use 1" or less. And maintance over it is imperative. I simply vaccumn mine completely once a month down to the glass. You'd be surprised what will come out when you dump the bucket. By doing this I have to overfeed a bit to maintain enough PO4 and NO3. I only change 10% a month in water and this is only so i can vaccumn. So its far cheaper with 1/2 the required water changes annd a little complete w/ trace additives. You can pull that entire bottom out and replace w/ new washed CC. It is really not that difficult in a tank your size, but requires a little thought and prep work. If hou decide to go that route let me know i'll be happy to throw my two cwents worth in Andre'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 If the fresh CC will not cause a cycle, then I like Sasha'a plan above with the exception of replacing all the water at once. I can't see a 100% water change being good for the livestock i have. Not only that but I can only make about 45 gallons of fresh sw at one time. I should be able to siphon off and save most of the water and then just end up with maybe a 30% water change or so. I dread it, but I really don't think there's any way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 If I still lived in Austin, I'd make a party of it and recruit you all. Beer, ribs, and tearing down a tank. What more could you want? Patrick spoke of the nutrient control mode of the Vortechs. I have an MP40. Where is the optimal placement height wise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Position it about as high as you can without it sucking air, probably around 6" down. This way there's typically less interference with rockworks and you get more flow across the substrate. NTM was by far my favorite mode when using vortechs but I did go into night mode in the afternoon to around 10 PM just to keep the noise down when we were in the living room. I've had no problem reusing the water on several tank moves as long as you siphon is carefully without disturbing the sand while you do it. Same reason to take the rockwork out after the water so you don't stir up a bunch of stuff. You could do 50/50 or another radio as well so you don't need to make up so much SW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 That's about where i have the MP40 now. It churns the surface, but doesn't suck air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 The biggest issue with removing all substrate at one time is what will provide biofiltration while the new dry substrate is maturing. If you have mature healthy live rock, it should carry the load. Also, any rubble or substrate in refugium will also provide biofiltration. During lights on, corals and macro provide biofiltration. What is the grain size of your present substrate? If it is aroggonite and coarse enough not to be blown away, I see no reason not to use it. It would save unnecessary work and expense if you vacuumed down to 3/4" and stopped. Apply the maintenance protocol with detrivores and janitors that I outlined. Seize the day. Patrick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share Posted January 11, 2014 The current grain size is aroggonite and is coarse enough not to be blown away. My convict blenny has no problem getting a mouthful and spitting it out. I'll try what Patrick suggests above as a first step. The maintenance protocol with aroggonite would still be stirring it up once a week correct or would it now require vacuming? I would think just stirring it up up would be fine. I've got plenty or ccu critters i believe so I should be good to go in that respect. I'm also planning to add an upflow algae scrubber to the sump in place of the GFO. I don't suppose it would hurt to run the scrubber and a skimmer. I thiin this will allow me to feed the coral more often without driving the PO4 and NO3 up. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I think you're making too many changes at once. A recipe for trouble IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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