Wade Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm not sure if this is related to the sea whip that died (posted in a separate thread) or not. Several of my stonies died following the meltdown of a sea whip while I was on vacation. The sea whip was new to the system. I'm not sure what caused it to die or if it dying was the cause of the others to die. Before adding the sea whip I had a nice sized metallic green cap, two small acro frags, a large acro frag, and a branching monti that were all doing well (noted growth over the past couple of months). After the whip died, the cap sloughed it's flesh in about a week. The two small acro frags bleached out completely. Now the larger acro frag is turning white at the base. Everything else seems to be doing fine including all the softies and a few brain coral including a lobo, welso, maze, war, and regular favite type. So it appears that all that died were SPS. I also have a turbinaria that's still doing fine and a potato chip pavona that seams to weathering the storm (I can see a very small edge that's turned white). Also still doing well is a plate, meteor shower, three acans, alevepora, frogspawn, hammer, and a couple of small chalice frags. I listing all these because I don't want to assume that the sea whip was the only cause of the others dying. Like Timfish said in a previous post, there's many variable to take into account and an event several weeks ago could lead a coral to die now and leave you scratching your head wondering why. If the sea whip dying caused an ammonia spike or something similar, could that cause the SPS to die and not affect the others? Is there something that I should be looking for now (all my parameters seem to be fine with no drastic changes or fluctuations)? Is there anything I can do to save the acro turning white or does it just have to run it's course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, SPS tend to be the most sensitive, so it makes total sense that those would die and the others would be fine. If your acro is rapidly bleaching upward from the base, i've had success clipping from a healthy part of the flesh and regluing to a plug. Of course you need to locate and address the underlying water quality issue that nuked everything in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Could the sea whip dying be that cause and now it's past? It died during Christmas week and what was left of it was removed on the 28th when I returned from vacation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, but the repercussions can be longstanding if you still have excess nutrients from the death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 With most SPS, they don't always recuperate quickly or even immediately stop deteriorating if something was wrong but is now fixed. You could still be seeing effects of the tank issues for weeks or even months after the problem is corrected. Best bet at this point is getting and keeping the parameters stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yes, but the repercussions can be longstanding if you still have excess nutrients from the death. or getting them from the SPS deterioration? is there enough live tissue on them to cause parameter spikes? generally speaking, of course. i'm sure if you had enough of it die in a small enough water volume you'd get something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 is the SPS mounted to something? I know with some maricultured acros that come on the cement base, the base starts leaking phosphates and the acros begin dying from the bottom up.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Yeah it's mounted to a large base. It had encrusted over most of the base when I received it a while back and continued to show some nice growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 how does the encrusted part of the base look now? dead/bleached? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I ask, because I had previously had a conversation with Dan Rigle about why he breaks acros free of their base upon arrival. He replied with the same explanation, along wtih a link to a study/article he wrote. I'll try and find it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 My first thought under normal conditions would be a lighting issue. However with the recent history you've documented I'm going with a water quality issue and it may be something that isn't going to show up on our tests. If you water parameters are in line with what they histrically were before the die off I would be doing larger and or more frequent water changes and running carbon. I'm also going to wait a couple of months or until I see noticable growth with my existing corals before I add anything. But like has been pointed out above you may already have fixed the problem and you're just waiting out the after effects and have to be patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Base removal is a common practice for SPS to avoid AEFW eggs since they tend to lay them along the dead skeleton at the base of the coral. I don't buy large colonies but if I did, I would snap them at the base and reglue as well. Check your phosphates. I've usually encountered base tissue necrosis at around 0.2-0.3 ppm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Phosphate checked 0.00 on 12/29 (Hanna) and the same this evening 30 minutes after feeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I would get that double-checked by someone else just to confirm. I am usually hesitant to believe a 0.00 ppm reading on the Hanna meters. I had both the ppm version and the ultra low ppb phosporus version. Know anybody else with one that can test your water? If that is correct, I would greatly ease up on GFO use. I think I remember you mentioning you run GFO. That may be what led to the death of your gorgonian if you have that low of a phosphate concentration. Never had a gorgonian but most corals will not tolerate ultra low phosphates, even SPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 I've turned off the GFO. I'll test the PO4 over the next week and see what it does. I always the thought the lower the better and 0.00 is what you wanted, especially for SPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esacjack Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 when you run your hanna phosphate test, are you running the test on a flat surface? I've noticed holding it at any kind of angle causes the numbers to skew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 0.032 ppm is average natural seawater concentration of PO4. I aim for 0.020-0.030 ppm for my SPS tank. I have observed anything below 0.015 ppm tends to fade the colors of the SPS. I would HIGHLY recommend confirming your readings with another person's unit/LFS before making any changes. Twice in the last 5 months, I have confirmed that someone else's reading was in fact much higher than what their own unit was reading. One person was actually trying to raise his phosphates by overfeeding bases on his unit reading 0.00 ppm like yours. When I tested it, it was around 0.22 ppm! His SPS were STN'ing because of the elevated phosphate level and he was trying to still increase it based off a bad reading. That's why I highly recommend double-checking with someone else before taking any action. Hope it helps and good luck with the recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Jason (JPowell490) lives in my area. I may be able to get him to come over and check it for me. He's not been over to see my tank yet so he may be game. Mr. Powell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I've turned off the GFO. I'll test the PO4 over the next week and see what it does. I always the thought the lower the better and 0.00 is what you wanted, especially for SPS. Phosphates are an important limiting nutrient fo corals. The reason the water around reefs test very low is the intense competition and demand. Drop it too low and don't feed your corals enough and the corals starve. This research here: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full shows the changes in phosphate uptake by corals drops when they are fed a particulate food and their ability to utilize ammonium or nitrate for their Symbodinium dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) is limited when they do not get enough phosphates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Well I stopped by the LFS and picked up an API phosphate kit and it tested at 0.00 as well. I turned the GFO reactor off yesterday. I guess I'll feed some Coral Frenzy 2x this week and then test again and see where it's at. I obviously don't want to have it increase too quickly. As much as I hate to say it, I'm going to lay some responsibility on Mr. Saltwater Tank. When I first started to get serious about getting my tank in shape I bought his cruise control guide and have been using the target parameters he lists in the back of the guide for a mixed reef tank. He states that phosphate is just food for algae and his target levels are 0.00 ppm. It sounds like that's exactly accurate. Of course I still have this pesky red hair algae growing here and there so it's got to be living on something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I've turned off the GFO. I'll test the PO4 over the next week and see what it does. I always the thought the lower the better and 0.00 is what you wanted, especially for SPS. Phosphates are an important limiting nutrient fo corals. The reason the water around reefs test very low is the intense competition and demand. Drop it too low and don't feed your corals enough and the corals starve. This research here: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full shows the changes in phosphate uptake by corals drops when they are fed a particulate food and their ability to utilize ammonium or nitrate for their Symbodinium dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) is limited when they do not get enough phosphates. So, for non chemistry majors, the English version of this is that corals need phosphate in order to eat? They can get this from the water or from food? Wade, I wouldn't be too hard on mr saltwater. Maybe he just isn't as good as you are at removing them. Anyway, with all the different techniques of tank maintenance, I'm not sure he isn't running at 0 phosphates. Not that I want to start a debate about ultra low nutrient systems. But I know zeofit (or whatever) has a bunch of additives that need to be added after you strip everything out of the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, they need it and get it from the water column and also from food, potentially, although it seems much more likely in aquaria that they would be getting it from the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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