Calling all LED nerds!

[subsea]

While a MH or T5 6400 kelvin bulb will put out twice the PAR as an actinic bulb, that is not true for LED. The light emitting diode puts out one and only one spectrum. Thus the need for combining multiple different LED spectrum in the hope of matching the needs of the coral in question. To call an LED full spectrum is an oxymoron.

T5, MH, and power compact are full spectrum. Not so with LED.

Patrick

[victoly]

When you combine LEDs, you're approximating a full spectrum. I was trying to avoid the pedantry to help out someone new to LEDs.

[Jmvanness]

I understand spectra (thanks to an astronomy course lol). I like that LEDs aren't full spectrum. To me that means I have ultimate control over what part of the spectrum I use. I can keep the reds and greens down to prevent some growth of cynobacteria and nuisance algae and I can bump up the uv, purple, and blue parts that corals use all while tailoring the light to meet my aesthetic preferences.

I guess my question is, how do I know when I have enough light? Should I count bulbs? Par and lux? Power output?

What is the ideal PAR at the bottom of the tank?

[victoly]

I understand spectra (thanks to an astronomy course lol). I like that LEDs aren't full spectrum. To me that means I have ultimate control over what part of the spectrum I use. I can keep the reds and greens down to prevent some growth of cynobacteria and nuisance algae and I can bump up the uv, purple, and blue parts that corals use all while tailoring the light to meet my aesthetic preferences.

I guess my question is, how do I know when I have enough light? Should I count bulbs? Par and lux? Power output?

What is the ideal PAR at the bottom of the tank?

Therein lies the problem with building/choosing LEDs. There are many, many variants of every LED. Do you want 3 watt or 5 watt? What lense angle do you want? What color combinations? What power are you driving them at? What manufacturer?

As someone who has been where you have been and chose to go the DIY route (mostly because I was constrained within a closed hood), I wouldn't go my route .

The advantage to the AI Hydra/Vega is that you can swap in/out "pucks" which are LED sets much easier than if I decided I wanted to change colors. I'd have to pull LEDs, reheatpaste them, and that's if their power/color/placement specs are acceptable.

BMLED is nice because you can customize it on the front end. However, I have heard murmurs from various users that they just don't put out enough light to cut the mustard.

[(Bio)³]

I don't think the hydra does power puck swaps

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S4

[Jmvanness]

I'm looking at the Vega. They seem to be the best brand of what I've seen so far. They're a bit over what I wanted to spend, but I like the controller and the ability to swap out bulbs. Plus when I do eventually upgrade my tank, which is really only a matter of time, I can just add some more Vegas and voila!

Do you think 2 will be sufficient? What angle should I get?

[Jimbo662]

Two would probably be perfect on your size tank.

[Jmvanness]

If I'm reading this right, 2 modules, a mounting rail, and a controller for less that the price of two modules.

http://www.aquacave.com/Aqua-Illuminations-AI-2-Modules-Kit-P3257.aspx

[Timfish]

Par and lux is where I start getting confused. I have no idea what any of it means..

Oh man and we haven't even gotten started yet! If it makes you feel any better there are many Ph.Ds out there that have done their thesis and research on some aspect of light and how it's used by chlorophyll and science still has a lot left to learn. The following is a very brief description and you need to follow up with your own research, I would recommend Dana Riddles articles on Advancedaquarist.com to start with. Light is measured in nanometers the shorter the wavelength the higher the energy level. Different wavelengths bands are perceived by the human eye as different colors: below 400 is UV which the we can't see but is used by chlorophyll and corals, 400 to 500 is various colors of blue, green starts around 500 and goes to yellow and then orange and around 610 red takes over . There are currently five kinds of chlorophyll. PAR stands for Photosynthetically Available Radiation and measures light absorbed by chlorophyll a and b which is from 340 nm to about 500 and then from about 600 to about 700. Lux is a different measurement of light and is biased towards the green and yellow spectrum which the human eye is more sensitive to.

There are people who would be aghast that I would recomemend using a lux meter as it is more sensitive to the light that is not being used by chloraphyll a or b. There are two considerations I would point out. The first is both PAR and lux measuremnts are composite numbers and two different sources of light can have very different spectral output but give the same PAR or lux reading. The second is some corals are absorbing yellow light but reflecting red and blue wavelengths giving them a very pronounced purple coloration, we do not know what they are doing with it but when dealing with the coloration of corals we need to be looking at everything between 340nm and 700nm. And yes I know this means both lux and PAR meters are inadequate for the job. Ideally we need a cheap meter that displays the entire spectrum. PAR and lux meters still are the best method we have for measuring the realative intensity of a light fixture. I prefer PAR but as cheap as lux meters are I'm more than happy to sue them.

There are three different "things" that give coral their colors. The first is the corals symbionts, it's symbiotic dinoflagelates, brown, and symbiotic cyanobacteria for some corals that fluoresce orange-red. Many corals produce fluorescing proteins that absorb a wavelength of light (excitation wavelength) and reemit it as a longer wavelength thereby changing the perceived color. Corals also produce chromo protiens that absorb some wavelengths and reflect other wavelengths.

Now to continue complicating the issue is there are obviously very major spectral differences between different light sources. For example a 14,000K or 20,000K MH bulb has a significant portion of the UV removed. If someone using one switched to a LED fixture that uses UV or has a narrower/reduced orange/red component their corals are not going to look the same and may. as has been my experience, start to go down hill. What I like about Buildmyled is the expanded spectral output has eliminated the problem I have had with some corals and with others I am seeing colors I've never seen before.

There also is no such thing as an "Ideal"

[subsea]

I understand spectra (thanks to an astronomy course lol). I like that LEDs aren't full spectrum. To me that means I have ultimate control over what part of the spectrum I use. I can keep the reds and greens down to prevent some growth of cynobacteria and nuisance algae and I can bump up the uv, purple, and blue parts that corals use all while tailoring the light to meet my aesthetic preferences.

I guess my question is, how do I know when I have enough light? Should I count bulbs? Par and lux? Power output?

What is the ideal PAR at the bottom of the tank?

It depends on what coral is at the bottom.

There is no such generality that gives you the golden bullet. You know that you have enough light when the livestock that you placed in your tank prospers with the light and the other conditions that it requires.

Patrick

[Jimbo662]

those units on aquacave don't look like vega's.

[victoly]

i think those are AI Sols and not AI Vegas

[subsea]

With respect to BUILDMYLED, I like the crisp look of their 12K light. There general recommendation of 1' for each 10G of water will produce 100 PAR at the bottom of your tank. That should provide sufficient intensity for your livestock. For light loving SPS, it would not be adequate.

Patrick

[Jmvanness]

I knew I wasn't reading it correctly... ugh.

[Jmvanness]

Par and lux is where I start getting confused. I have no idea what any of it means..

Oh man and we haven't even gotten started yet! If it makes you feel any better there are many Ph.Ds out there that have done their thesis and research on some aspect of light and how it's used by chlorophyll and science still has a lot left to learn. The following is a very brief description and you need to follow up with your own research, I would recommend Dana Riddles articles on Advancedaquarist.com to start with. Light is measured in nanometers the shorter the wavelength the higher the energy level. Different wavelengths bands are perceived by the human eye as different colors: below 400 is UV which the we can't see but is used by chlorophyll and corals, 400 to 500 is various colors of blue, green starts around 500 and goes to yellow and then orange and around 610 red takes over . There are currently five kinds of chlorophyll. PAR stands for Photosynthetically Available Radiation and measures light absorbed by chlorophyll a and b which is from 340 nm to about 500 and then from about 600 to about 700. Lux is a different measurement of light and is biased towards the green and yellow spectrum which the human eye is more sensitive to.

There are people who would be aghast that I would recomemend using a lux meter as it is more sensitive to the light that is not being used by chloraphyll a or b. There are two considerations I would point out. The first is both PAR and lux measuremnts are composite numbers and two different sources of light can have very different spectral output but give the same PAR or lux reading. The second is some corals are absorbing yellow light but reflecting red and blue wavelengths giving them a very pronounced purple coloration, we do not know what they are doing with it but when dealing with the coloration of corals we need to be looking at everything between 340nm and 700nm. And yes I know this means both lux and PAR meters are inadequate for the job. Ideally we need a cheap meter that displays the entire spectrum. PAR and lux meters still are the best method we have for measuring the realative intensity of a light fixture. I prefer PAR but as cheap as lux meters are I'm more than happy to sue them.

There are three different "things" that give coral their colors. The first is the corals symbionts, it's symbiotic dinoflagelates, brown, and symbiotic cyanobacteria for some corals that fluoresce orange-red. Many corals produce fluorescing proteins that absorb a wavelength of light (excitation wavelength) and reemit it as a longer wavelength thereby changing the perceived color. Corals also produce chromo protiens that absorb some wavelengths and reflect other wavelengths.

Now to continue complicating the issue is there are obviously very major spectral differences between different light sources. For example a 14,000K or 20,000K MH bulb has a significant portion of the UV removed. If someone using one switched to a LED fixture that uses UV or has a narrower/reduced orange/red component their corals are not going to look the same and may. as has been my experience, start to go down hill. What I like about Buildmyled is the expanded spectral output has eliminated the problem I have had with some corals and with others I am seeing colors I've never seen before.

There also is no such thing as an "Ideal"

That made my eyes bleed. lol. I'm honestly surprised I've done as well as I have without knowing any of that.

But, my corals are doing okay under the 6 bulb t5 (3 blue 3 10kK) so I imagine any amount of leds would vastly improve their look and growth. I gave a couple leathers that weren't doing well under my lights to Derek who has 5 Ecotech Radions on his 375 and the darn things are growing like weeds and extending there polpys now.

[victoly]

Par and lux is where I start getting confused. I have no idea what any of it means..

Oh man and we haven't even gotten started yet! If it makes you feel any better there are many Ph.Ds out there that have done their thesis and research on some aspect of light and how it's used by chlorophyll and science still has a lot left to learn. The following is a very brief description and you need to follow up with your own research, I would recommend Dana Riddles articles on Advancedaquarist.com to start with. Light is measured in nanometers the shorter the wavelength the higher the energy level. Different wavelengths bands are perceived by the human eye as different colors: below 400 is UV which the we can't see but is used by chlorophyll and corals, 400 to 500 is various colors of blue, green starts around 500 and goes to yellow and then orange and around 610 red takes over . There are currently five kinds of chlorophyll. PAR stands for Photosynthetically Available Radiation and measures light absorbed by chlorophyll a and b which is from 340 nm to about 500 and then from about 600 to about 700. Lux is a different measurement of light and is biased towards the green and yellow spectrum which the human eye is more sensitive to.

There are people who would be aghast that I would recomemend using a lux meter as it is more sensitive to the light that is not being used by chloraphyll a or b. There are two considerations I would point out. The first is both PAR and lux measuremnts are composite numbers and two different sources of light can have very different spectral output but give the same PAR or lux reading. The second is some corals are absorbing yellow light but reflecting red and blue wavelengths giving them a very pronounced purple coloration, we do not know what they are doing with it but when dealing with the coloration of corals we need to be looking at everything between 340nm and 700nm. And yes I know this means both lux and PAR meters are inadequate for the job. Ideally we need a cheap meter that displays the entire spectrum. PAR and lux meters still are the best method we have for measuring the realative intensity of a light fixture. I prefer PAR but as cheap as lux meters are I'm more than happy to sue them.

There are three different "things" that give coral their colors. The first is the corals symbionts, it's symbiotic dinoflagelates, brown, and symbiotic cyanobacteria for some corals that fluoresce orange-red. Many corals produce fluorescing proteins that absorb a wavelength of light (excitation wavelength) and reemit it as a longer wavelength thereby changing the perceived color. Corals also produce chromo protiens that absorb some wavelengths and reflect other wavelengths.

Now to continue complicating the issue is there are obviously very major spectral differences between different light sources. For example a 14,000K or 20,000K MH bulb has a significant portion of the UV removed. If someone using one switched to a LED fixture that uses UV or has a narrower/reduced orange/red component their corals are not going to look the same and may. as has been my experience, start to go down hill. What I like about Buildmyled is the expanded spectral output has eliminated the problem I have had with some corals and with others I am seeing colors I've never seen before.

There also is no such thing as an "Ideal"

That made my eyes bleed. lol. I'm honestly surprised I've done as well as I have without knowing any of that.

But, my corals are doing okay under the 6 bulb t5 (3 blue 3 10kK) so I imagine any amount of leds would vastly improve their look and growth. I gave a couple leathers that weren't doing well under my lights to Derek who has 5 Ecotech Radions on his 375 and the darn things are growing like weeds and extending there polpys now.

I think if you're switching for a look, you might be better off messing with your bulb combo than changing to LEDs. The biggest difference between MH/T5/LED is their energy expenditures and operating costs. In fact, the people who grow coral professionally still by and large use MH because the growth/coloration is better (in their opinion).

If you're having husbandry issues, I'd bet the farm that it's the water and not the lights.

[Jmvanness]

All major parameters (amonia, nitrates, nitrites) are in line. Having said that, I haven't been dosing in any way with calcium, iodine or anything else except using "reef salt" for water changes. ATO is working. Not having problems so much as just not seeing a lot of growth. The corals I pulled from my smaller system look better, I think due to the better lighting. A bulb change would probably make a huge difference as all the 10kK bulbs are overdue for a change. Just figured I'd look into LEDs before spending the money on bulbs.

[Benny]

Looking at going the Lumia 5.1 route on my 105. I think I will need 4 but 3 may work. The tank is 48"x24"x21".

[esacjack]

Looking at going the Lumia 5.1 route on my 105. I think I will need 4 but 3 may work. The tank is 48"x24"x21".

The lumia covers a 24x24x24 area without flinching. I have two over a 36x18x16. Im still wiring up the last of the interface cables, but when thats done I can let you know how much i had to dial them back. If you have a center brace, you can go with 4 just to avoid the weird off-set. If you dont, 3 is definitely all you'll need, these things are crazy bright. If you're using multiple lumias turn them at 45 degree angle on your heat sink for better fixture-to-fixture mixing.

[Benny]

It is a rimless tank so no brace to worry about. I was hoping 3 could do it even with heavy sps stocking.

[Jmvanness]

Are these DIY fixtures?

[victoly]

Yeah lumias are DIY

[victoly]

Yeah lumias are DIY

[Jmvanness]

That is entirely too complicated for me... I have a hard time figuring out what bulbs to put in the build my led thing lol.

[Jimbo662]

I'm with you...I looked at doing DIY and soon realized it wasn't for me either.