Alkalinity mystery

[+KimP]

I have a fairly new 90 gal tank running. Started slowly, let it run with just live rock for a while. Live rock is from a tank that had been running for about a year I think. Added a few cuc, nothing crazy. Later added some feeder shrimp. Much later added a couple inverts. More than a month ago I added some fish. So it's been a few months of slow stocking. Current stocking list is a small eel and 3 small fish. 2 of them are very small. Decorator crab, cleaner shrimp. Only a few corals, mostly small lps frags. At the very end of June I started daily small feedings along with the fish using an auto feeder and I left town for a month. Get back things are great, corals look good. So no water change since the end of June. I test the water for the first time a couple days ago using the red sea pro kit.

Ca 420

Mg 1600

Alk doesn't even register on the chart o.O

Order a hanna alk checker that comes today and it shows 89 then 92ppm. Very very low.

Any ideas how this is happening? I'm going to have someone test the alk in their hanna checker to see if they get the same results but I think it may be correct. Corals look good except a couple zoa frags, but that's actually pretty normal lol! I just plugged in the skimmer yesterday but it's not collecting much as of today. I think excess nutrients can lower alk, right? I hardly have any algae growth so excess nutrients doesn't seem to fit. I'd like to get some ideas of how it got so low so maybe I can correct the problem. I'm also getting ready to dose.

Thanks!

[+KimP]

Also, I use red sea coral pro salt and added a bottle of aragamight when I set up the tank.

[FarmerTy]

What's your pH Kim?

[Bogdan]

Make some fresh water with the salt you are using and check the alkalinity. I bet yout pH is sky rocket high,

[+KimP]

I'm currently mixing salt. I'm waiting on some pH 10 soln to calibrate my meter. That's the only test for ph I have atm.

[esacjack]

im wondering if you went through a bacterial bloom that decimated your alk. I was in a similar situation recently and could never Id the issue. I resorted to a few semi drastic water changes, then using the aquavitro 8.4 gradually over a week, then switch to kalkwasser once it was under control. This is a quote from someone on one of those other sites..

" Heterotrophic bacteria do not use inorganic carbon (carbonate, bicarbonate, carbon dioxide). They are breaking down organics into ammonia, the ammonia goes through the nitrification process which produces acid and reduces alkalinity. "

have you tested for ammonia??

[+KimP]

im wondering if you went through a bacterial bloom that decimated your alk.  I was in a similar situation recently and could never Id the issue.  I resorted to a few semi drastic water changes, then using the aquavitro 8.4 gradually over a week, then switch to kalkwasser once it was under control.   This is a quote from someone on one of those other sites.. 

 

" Heterotrophic bacteria do not use inorganic carbon (carbonate, bicarbonate, carbon dioxide). They are breaking down organics into ammonia, the ammonia goes through the nitrification process which produces acid and reduces alkalinity. "  

 

have you tested for ammonia??

I think you might be on to something. I have not tested for ammonia but I can. All of my inhabitants look great and act normal so I didn't test for it. I kinda wondered if it had something to do with adding fish and starting regular feedings all of a sudden when I left town. So are you still having to dose kalk?

[esacjack]

my corals didnt seem terribly annoyed either, only minor traces of ammonia, and a rapidly falling alk. Im only dosing Kalk to keep things stable, and I'm only mixing 1 tsp per 2 gallons (lighter mix than usual). So far it's keeping me right on the money of 8.3ph and 7.7 on my alk. Start with some water changes, and it took mine about a week or two to settle down to the point where the alk started to steadily climb to where it needed to be. Once I got it there, I started mixing the kalk into my ATO. My tank really doesnt have much in it, so I was a bit surprised to see the alk crash like it did.

[+KimP]

my corals didnt seem terribly annoyed either, only minor traces of ammonia, and a rapidly falling alk. Im only dosing Kalk to keep things stable, and I'm only mixing 1 tsp per 2 gallons (lighter mix than usual). So far it's keeping me right on the money of 8.3ph and 7.7 on my alk. Start with some water changes, and it took mine about a week or two to settle down to the point where the alk started to steadily climb to where it needed to be. Once I got it there, I started mixing the kalk into my ATO. My tank really doesnt have much in it, so I was a bit surprised to see the alk crash like it did.

I've been surprised too. Thanks for the info, I'll get a water change done asap tomorrow and go from there. I'm so relieved that this might be a random thing and I won't be dosing alk like crazy for the life of my tank!

[Neon Reefer]

Kim

Sounds like: From what I read the tank has been up and running a few months with nothing added and no water changes. It would seem normal that the Alk would fall over a period of time with nothing to replenish what is being used. Doesn't mena anything went wrong as it is normal for Alk to fall faster. Only thing that surprises me is that the Ca maintained a + 400 ppm.

I know my Red Sea Pro when mixed to 1.025 SG usually has avout 10 - 11 dkH Alk.

I'd raise your Alk by whatever means yoiu prefer by 1.0 dKH per day until you reach your desired level and balance w/ Ca. Be sure you do not drive down your Ca while doing this. I would test foundation elements x2 weekly to determine usage and begin some dosing program to maintain a stability. Stability = a healthier tank in the long run and until you have a stable tank you will have spikes on Alk and Ca usage, hence the need for frequent testing. later on you can cut back on the testing. Remeber when ever you add new stony corals your foundation chemistry will change to some degree.

Andre'.

[esacjack]

My Ca never dropped below 400 when my alk tanked at unreadable levels. (ha...tanked.. punny man..)

Kim

Sounds like: From what I read the tank has been up and running a few months with nothing added and no water changes. It would seem normal that the Alk would fall over a period of time with nothing to replenish what is being used. Doesn't mena anything went wrong as it is normal for Alk to fall faster. Only thing that surprises me is that the Ca maintained a + 400 ppm.

I know my Red Sea Pro when mixed to 1.025 SG usually has avout 10 - 11 dkH Alk.

I'd raise your Alk by whatever means yoiu prefer by 1.0 dKH per day until you reach your desired level and balance w/ Ca. Be sure you do not drive down your Ca while doing this. I would test foundation elements x2 weekly to determine usage and begin some dosing program to maintain a stability. Stability = a healthier tank in the long run and until you have a stable tank you will have spikes on Alk and Ca usage, hence the need for frequent testing. later on you can cut back on the testing. Remeber when ever you add new stony corals your foundation chemistry will change to some degree.

Andre'.

[Planeden]

kim, if you want to bring some water over i have a full API test kit, the regular and the reef tank. i know, API is not the greatest, but my parameters tests have all seemed to check out when i take a sample to aquadome. they will test a few things for free, but the calcium and more complicated ones cost.

[victoly]

Depending on what your total system volume is (DT - LR - sandbed [i use 70% of DT as a rough guestimate]) + sump volume) you can plug it into the BRS alkalinity calculator.

Just as a dummy calculation, i plugged you in at 90 gallons of total system volume.

To go from 90 ppm to 150 ppm you need, with the 2 part alkalinity solution from BRS:

216 ml or
7.3 fl oz or
43.2 tsp.

So you're going to be jumping about 60 ppm of alk, OR like 3 dKh. I wouldn't go more than 0.5 dkh or ~9 ppm per day. SO, you're going to divide your dosing up into 7 days of dosing.

Each day, dose 43.2 tsp/7 days or ~ 6tsps per day of BRS 2 part alk. I'd dissolve it in maybe 1L of RODI and dose first thing in the morning or whenever your pH low is.

To recap:

6 tsps per day for 7 days.

Something to consider is that RSCP runs at like 11-12 dKh if you're at 1.025-1.026 salinity. Consequently, your alk may drift up over time. Nothing wrong with that really, just something to be aware of.

Before you dose the first day, check your alk. Test again an hour later to make sure you arent busting like 10 ppm per day of alk increase. Good luck!

[esacjack]

good advice vic, speaking from experience pushing too much too quickly definitely has some ill side effects.

[mFrame]

I'm currently mixing salt. I'm waiting on some pH 10 soln to calibrate my meter. That's the only test for ph I have atm.

I've got some if you need it.

[+KimP]

I'm currently mixing salt. I'm waiting on some pH 10 soln to calibrate my meter. That's the only test for ph I have atm.

I've got some if you need it.

Thank you for the offer! I just picked up some from victoly so hopefully tonight I'll have the pH meter going.

[+KimP]

Kim

 

Sounds like:  From what I read the tank has been up and running a few months with nothing added and no water changes.  It would seem normal that the Alk would fall over a period of time with nothing to replenish what is being used.  Doesn't mena anything went wrong as it is normal for Alk to fall faster. Only thing that surprises me is that the Ca maintained a + 400 ppm.  

 

I know my Red Sea Pro when mixed to 1.025 SG usually has avout 10 - 11 dkH Alk. 

 

I'd raise your Alk by whatever means yoiu prefer by 1.0 dKH per day until you reach your desired level and balance w/ Ca.  Be sure you do not drive down your Ca while doing this. I would test foundation elements x2 weekly to determine usage and begin some dosing program to maintain a stability.  Stability = a healthier tank in the long run and until you have a stable tank you will have spikes on Alk and Ca usage, hence the need for frequent testing.  later on you can cut back on the testing.   Remeber when ever you add new stony corals your foundation chemistry will change to some degree. 

 

Andre'.

Thanks for the info. I need to figure out all this stuff about calcium and alkalinity regarding dosing. About my first post, I had been doing water changes until I left town at the very end of June. Right after adding the fish and starting regular feedings. So it's been almost 1.5 months without one.

[+KimP]

Depending on what your total system volume is (DT - LR - sandbed [i use 70% of DT as a rough guestimate]) + sump volume) you can plug it into the BRS alkalinity calculator.

Just as a dummy calculation, i plugged you in at 90 gallons of total system volume.

To go from 90 ppm to 150 ppm you need, with the 2 part alkalinity solution from BRS:

216 ml or

7.3 fl oz or

43.2 tsp.

So you're going to be jumping about 60 ppm of alk, OR like 3 dKh. I wouldn't go more than 0.5 dkh or ~9 ppm per day. SO, you're going to divide your dosing up into 7 days of dosing.

Each day, dose 43.2 tsp/7 days or ~ 6tsps per day of BRS 2 part alk. I'd dissolve it in maybe 1L of RODI and dose first thing in the morning or whenever your pH low is.

To recap:

6 tsps per day for 7 days.

Something to consider is that RSCP runs at like 11-12 dKh if you're at 1.025-1.026 salinity. Consequently, your alk may drift up over time. Nothing wrong with that really, just something to be aware of.

Before you dose the first day, check your alk. Test again an hour later to make sure you arent busting like 10 ppm per day of alk increase. Good luck!

Thank you for spelling all that out. It definitely helps me and I'm sure will help others in the future who might read this.

I feel like I understand all the info on dosing but now I'm confused about the water change. I have about 20 gal ready to go. I was going to do it all at once, should I do smaller ones to avoid increasing the alk too fast?

[esacjack]

maybe break it into two water changes over the course of 24 hours...

[victoly]

Depending on what your total system volume is (DT - LR - sandbed [i use 70% of DT as a rough guestimate]) + sump volume) you can plug it into the BRS alkalinity calculator.

Just as a dummy calculation, i plugged you in at 90 gallons of total system volume.

To go from 90 ppm to 150 ppm you need, with the 2 part alkalinity solution from BRS:

216 ml or

7.3 fl oz or

43.2 tsp.

So you're going to be jumping about 60 ppm of alk, OR like 3 dKh. I wouldn't go more than 0.5 dkh or ~9 ppm per day. SO, you're going to divide your dosing up into 7 days of dosing.

Each day, dose 43.2 tsp/7 days or ~ 6tsps per day of BRS 2 part alk. I'd dissolve it in maybe 1L of RODI and dose first thing in the morning or whenever your pH low is.

To recap:

6 tsps per day for 7 days.

Something to consider is that RSCP runs at like 11-12 dKh if you're at 1.025-1.026 salinity. Consequently, your alk may drift up over time. Nothing wrong with that really, just something to be aware of.

Before you dose the first day, check your alk. Test again an hour later to make sure you arent busting like 10 ppm per day of alk increase. Good luck!

Thank you for spelling all that out. It definitely helps me and I'm sure will help others in the future who might read this.

I feel like I understand all the info on dosing but now I'm confused about the water change. I have about 20 gal ready to go. I was going to do it all at once, should I do smaller ones to avoid increasing the alk too fast?

When you think about it in terms of percentages, 20 gallons out of a total system volume of maybe 100 (minus LR/Sand), is only 20% water change, not crazy by any standards. Although, to be safe you could space it two days. Once I duplicate that alk test you could make the decision to begin dosing, or what your course of action could be.

[+KimP]

Assuming I calibrated the probe right, my pH is 7.28

[victoly]

Stick your probe in a small container of cal solution and see if it reads correctly.

[+KimP]

Stick your probe in a small container of cal solution and see if it reads correctly.

Yes. Of course. I need sleep...

[Neon Reefer]

The 0.5 Alk rule for safely raising dkH encompasses all types of tanks and volumes and stocking lists. If you have a very large tank with lots of SPS you should probably follow this rule of thumb as you would be adding quite large volumes of Alk at a time that may contact the SPS corals and cause RTN.

But in this situation with a less than 90 gal volume and only small LPS frags it makes more sense to follow the 1.0 dKH per 24 hours rule. If you calculate the amount of Alk needed to raise this volume of water only one dkH it is pretty small and the contact w/ LPS frags is very minimal and would cause virttually no strss.

Some tanks can consume up to 1.0 dKH per day. Although this is not the case here, the tank will consume some part of the Alk needed during the 24 hour dosing period and the net result will be something less than a 1.0 dkH increase. Further the Alk can be added every 12 hours at 1/2 the amount needed to raise the dkH for a 1.0 calculated rise in a 24 hour period to avoid impacting the corals. At this rate it would take 3 -4 days to raise the dkH where needed.

IMHO taking 7 - 8 days.to raise the dkH to a desired level @ 0.5 dkH per day is just being over cautous in this situation. Its OK but just not incumbant. There is lots of precident on this matter

[victoly]

In reefing, slower is almost always better than faster.