Wade Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure if this is cyano coming back or something else. Gets all clumpy on my overflow box and on the side of my wave box. I scrub it off but it comes right back. Tested 0.00 for PO4 and NO3. All other parameters are good as well. Suggestions? Edited July 21, 2013 by Wade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobR Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hard to tell form the pic. Is it slimy? If so then I would say it is probably cyano. Cyano is one of those things that IME takes a multi pronged approach to beat, cyano is a bacteria and can be a real pain. Some of the things that folks use to knock it out are GFO, less feeding, extra water changes (suck out as much as you can), lessen photoperiod, possible 3 days of darkness, macro algae in the sump to help with nutrient export. Oh and a bit of patience as it wont go away overnight. Bottom line though is lessening the nutrients available for it to grow. Also from my experience you will get low readings po4 and no3 because the algae is sucking it up, so it reads low on test kits. I don't have any experience wit things like bio pellets or vodka dosing but I believe that this things can help as well, hopefully someone has used these methods will chime in. IMHO best thing you can do is be patient and keep after it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 It's not without risk, but it's a pretty good way to lay waste to the cyano while you get the root cause figured out. I'd like to echo what Rob said, your tests are low because the cyano has removed the nutrients from the water column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 I used Chemiclean about a month back when it was all over the substrate. It's not showing up on the substrate yet. Not sure if its slimy, but it is hairy. I'll try to get a quick video of it swaying on the side of the wave box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I'll think I'll try the three days of darkness. I'm noticing a little on the substrate now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I suppose I could use the Chemiclean in conjunction with the lights out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Cyno bacteria is able to process organic phosphate in the substrate. It does not need dissolved (inorganic) phosphate in the water column. Considering that you used chemiclean a month ago and you still have the problem. I suggest you focus on removing detritus from your substrate. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I thought I had read somewhere that it was better not to disturb the substrate, but it appears that I either misunderstood or they were wrong. I also thought I just read on an ARC post a few days ago that someone actually stirs up their substrate regularly to get all the detritus up in the water column because the coral eat it and it let it filter out via the skimmer. I'll gone a week starting this Saturday so maybe three days of darkness before I go and then some substrate scrubbing when I return. I'll dim the lights back to 50% following the blackout for the week I'm gone s well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I vacum the top inch of substrate when required. In my 4" DSB, I stir the top inch to feed detritus and bacteria to filter feeders. I have posted both of those comments, but I do not have a protein skimmer. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 First off I would caution against using chemiclean too often as you can develop resistant strains of cynobacteria. Is it similar to the sporophyte stage of Asparagopsis here: http://university.uog.edu/botany/474/rhodo/asparagopsis.html? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobR Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I thought I had read somewhere that it was better not to disturb the substrate, but it appears that I either misunderstood or they were wrong. I also thought I just read on an ARC post a few days ago that someone actually stirs up their substrate regularly to get all the detritus up in the water column because the coral eat it and it let it filter out via the skimmer. I'll gone a week starting this Saturday so maybe three days of darkness before I go and then some substrate scrubbing when I return. I'll dim the lights back to 50% following the blackout for the week I'm gone s well. Lots of people stir or vaccum their sand beds, however if the tank had been set up a while it may be advisable to do it in a small sections then wait a day or two and do another small section until you have done the entire sandbed. This gets some of the gunk that has settled stirred up and allows your filtration to remove it without releasing too much of the nastiness and possibly causing more severe problems. Then once you have done this for a couple of weeks, you can probably start doing the entire sandbed as part of your routine maintenance. I saw a video somehwere (I believe it was on vivid aqauriums website) where they talk about stirring your sandbed as part of your maintenace routine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) @Timfish: No doesn't resemble any of those. It's kind of whispy where it's grown out long enough to move with the water. Other than that is just in thick patches on the overflow box. Almost clumpy. @RobR: I used to vacuum my sand bed each time I did a water change, but since I started doing 5% - 10% changes every week to 10 days, I stopped doing that. I guess this is the result of that decison. I started the three day black out today (no Chemiclean). The tank gets a lot of ambient light, but that's all it will get for three days. I'll do a 20% change today with vacuum and once again on Friday before I go away for a week and instruct my tank sitter to only feed every other day. I'm going to make that my regular routine from now on instead of feeding every day. When I get back I'll do another regular weekly water change, but from now on I'll vacuum half the tank each week. The sections that I can't get to with the vacuum I'll stir up (small section at a time) before I do the water change. Hopefully that will get take care of it. No reason it shouldn't. Thanks for your help all:) Edited July 22, 2013 by Wade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I was gonna comment but wanted the more experienced folks to chime in first. I'm not an algae expert but have had success against cyano, dinoflagellate, and green hair. You're doing exactly what I would suggest. 3 day lights out and big water change. Your anemone will likely start to roam in search of light. I would try feeding on day 2 to maybe discourage it. Some other corals won't love it but they'll be fine. Just make site you ramp your lights up sloooowly. I made a great many things angry by going full photoperiod right away. Also...are you running a media reactor? Gfo and carbon can help. Won't fix it over overnight but can certainly help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 the daily feeding is probably contributing, I'd cut wayyyyy back on that. Like Bpb said, GFO to get the phosphate out is helpful as well, but IIRC, you're already doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Yep, I'm running GFO and carbon. The GFO is due for a change so I'll do that when I do my water change. I'll definitely take it slow ramping my lights back up. Maybe just 35% day one and then 10% more each day up to 65 or 75 %. I might stop at 60% since my new anemone is really having a tough time acclimating to my lights. He just won't settle down anywhere. The foam cover on the vortech foiled his suicide attempt yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Reefer Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 I know i'll catch some shrapnel for saying this; but, This is why I do not like utilizing sand in a reef tank. Too many problems especially as it ages. Yes I know the majority of people love it, need it, embrace it and all that stuff! But IME its too much work for such a fickle thing. Does it really look that great? It can but too many times it's just dirty looking. I'll take my my 1" of crushed Atlantic coral over it anyday. Once a week I stir the heck out of it and feed my corals with the cloud it makes, and I get a great feeding response from the coral. Cause what do corals eat in the wild? Bacteria, algae, and detritus, which is exactly whats in the CC. Cloud clears overnight and the next day i clean my filters. I vaccuum once a month as well. Hey I'm not in it for the swimmers and crawlers who need it, i'm in it for the coral! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 To tell you the truth, i really don't know what kind of substrate I have. I do know that it's about 10 years old. It came in sealed bags when I first bought it when I was setting up my tank. I might be able to find out from the place I bought it if they're still selling the same stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Reefer Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 To tell you the truth, i really don't know what kind of substrate I have. I do know that it's about 10 years old. It came in sealed bags when I first bought it when I was setting up my tank. I might be able to find out from the place I bought it if they're still selling the same stuff. If it is a 10 year old sandbed then you could be suffering from OTS old tank syndrom commonly associated w/ old sandbeds. Is it hardening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 i was also curious about the age of it. but i know you "Started over" a year ago. did you clean the sand at that time? it seems to me that a thorough cleaning would effectively make the sand 1 year old in tank years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 I started over in the sense that I renewed my commitment to have a beautiful sw DT. Yes, it is starting to harden in places and I have to break it up by crushing it. Is it time for new substrate? How would I accomplish that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Well I found this article on Advanced Aquarist http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2 which discusses in detail OTS. I definitely need to start vacuuming and stirring up my substrate and since I'll lose some of it vacuuming I'll plan to add back new healthy substrate a little at a time. I assume you can still buy live substrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Well I found this article on Advanced Aquarist http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2 which discusses in detail OTS. I definitely need to start vacuuming and stirring up my substrate and since I'll lose some of it vacuuming I'll plan to add back new healthy substrate a little at a time. I assume you can still buy live substrate. Live sand in a sealed bag means bacteria only. You already have a mature bacteria population. Dry sand is a good replacement. When I first started with a calcium reactor, I pushed calcium concentration and alkalinity to the upper end of the scale. Not always a good idea. How deep is your sandbed? What grain size? Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) I know i'll catch some shrapnel for saying this; but, This is why I do not like utilizing sand in a reef tank. Too many problems especially as it ages. Yes I know the majority of people love it, need it, embrace it and all that stuff! But IME its too much work for such a fickle thing. Does it really look that great? It can but too many times it's just dirty looking. I'll take my my 1" of crushed Atlantic coral over it anyday. Once a week I stir the heck out of it and feed my corals with the cloud it makes, and I get a great feeding response from the coral. Cause what do corals eat in the wild? Bacteria, algae, and detritus, which is exactly whats in the CC. Cloud clears overnight and the next day i clean my filters. I vaccuum once a month as well. Hey I'm not in it for the swimmers and crawlers who need it, i'm in it for the coral! What grain size do you use in your 1" sand bed? Two years ago, Gerald Hesslinger, convinced me to get away from DSB and use a coarse aroggonite substrate. I use CaribSea "Florida Crushed Coral" at 2mm-5mm. This is the easiest method that I have used in 40 years of reef keeping. Patrick Edited July 23, 2013 by subsea 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I've kept both fine grain DSB and 3" of crushed coral. I prefer a healthy mix of sand grains because it looks good and it's easier to vacuum. IMO if you're going to vacuum the entire depth of your sand bed, then you should do it 2-4 sqin a week. If you're going to vacuum the top 1" of your sand bed, then you can put the siphon into the sand and pick it up right away, letting the sand fall back down. Anything you want to remove will be less dense then the sand and will get sucked up and you won't lose very much substrate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobR Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Well I found this article on Advanced Aquarist http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2 which discusses in detail OTS. I definitely need to start vacuuming and stirring up my substrate and since I'll lose some of it vacuuming I'll plan to add back new healthy substrate a little at a time. I assume you can still buy live substrate. Live sand in a sealed bag means bacteria only. You already have a mature bacteria population. Dry sand is a good replacement. When I first started with a calcium reactor, I pushed calcium concentration and alkalinity to the upper end of the scale. Not always a good idea. How deep is your sandbed? What grain size? Patrick +1 just add some dry sand. Plus as an added bonus---dry sand is less expensive than the live stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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