removing a skimmer from a reef tank

[kingjames]

ok so im really interested in peoples experiences with removing a skimmer from a tank that is used to haveing a skimmer running, wouldnt the ph drop from the quick lack of CO2, and shock the system, or would you do this gradually, and would you have to replace skimmer with a refugium to help with PO4 removal

second- ok so some of craziest sps, ulns tanks ive seen have all had skimmers, but have yet to see a unls system without a skimmer growing great sps colonies other then the one timfish maintains, so if you have a skimmerless ulns tank with good sps colonies then if you could post pic with some info on the tank, that would be awsome

my info: 55g dt, 20g sump, cant remeber the skimmer i have since im at work right now, but runs 24/7, and kicks a**

PO4-undetectable

alk-9

calcium-480

i run gfo and carbon in brs reactors

lps dominate, but jumping into sps pretty hard at the moment

Edited April 18, 2013 by kingjames420

[victoly]

Innncoooominnnnggg

[jestep]

There are examples of well established skimmerless tanks, so unless the bioload is very high to the point where the tank is unstable, I wouldn't dispute skimmerless tanks not working. Subsea and timfish, and several other locals run them. If you do a google search, you're find a plethora of examples and discussion on the topic as well. They are not typically super low nutrient systems, so some SPS are probably going to be more brown than in something like a zeovit tank which is the epitome of a ULNS. This topic can get a bit heated, so I don't want to go too much further into it.

As for CO2, as CO2 goes up, PH goes down (more acidic), so with the removal of a skimmer the CO2 concentration would likely go up due to reduced degassing. I don't think it would be significant though since the tank's algae / light cycle is going to play a bigger role in CO2 concentration than skimmer-degassing.

I don't see a whole lot of detriment from just flat out removing a skimmer from a tank unless you have no other surface agitation and then O2 levels could get too low. Also, if you're running biopellets or carbon/vodka dosing, you don't want to remove the skimmer before those and probably giving it a few days post removal.

[ckyuv]

Is there a reason you are removing the skimmer? Jumping into sps and taking out a skimmer seems funny. I don't see why it would be an issue though if you have a gfo and carbon reactor

[kingjames]

i apologize i am not removing my skimmer on my 55, thats my baby and will make no major changes to, but, sorry about the confusion with the title, Im big at assesing others reef tanks, and thier maintanence, if you have met with me you know already, i just like to hear other peoples take on certain matter and subject, ive read alot and have heard of people saying skimmers are a waste of time and money and are have no real benifit, but if all major sps systems have a skimmer on them, then i want to know what a persons thoughts on why and how not having a skimmer is better for thier system (ex...more good nutrients in water column, or less depletion of major and minor elements, i just want peoples point of views and if thier tanks have good growth and ulns then i wanted to mostly hear from them, and what they are doing diffrent, ive read plenty of info on the subject, but alot of info online can be a dime a dozen, so really my point was to get some hard facts and a little reasearch, i have a twenty gallon project tank im messing around with and just wanted to do some experiments, while taking in others expirences , this tank was my qt, but is now my project, i have a skimmer on that tank which i was wanting to know the affects of removing the skimmer and info from people who dont use them and why

Edited April 18, 2013 by kingjames420

[kingjames]

Innncoooominnnnggg

lol, i knew this would be a tricky subject, but was focusing on people who actually care for systems with no skimmer, instead of what people "ThINK" i wanna hear from the people who are actually "DOING" if that makes since

[jestep]

Sorry, I probably directed that the way you didn't want it to go. Subsea and timfish. I know there's more locally but I can't think of who off the top of my head.

[Timfish]

wouldnt the ph drop from the quick lack of CO2, and shock the system, or would you do this gradually, and would you have to replace skimmer with a refugium to help with PO4 removal

You mean increase in CO2 right?

Regarding the original question the times I've removed skimmers I haven't done anything special and have not noticed any effects on the pH or animals. Tha't doesn't mean something can't happen and I've been bitten enough thinking because the animals look happy that everything is good that I am testing more now than I used too. Regarding refugiums if you look at Steve Tyree's Zonal System or Len Sy's "Ecosystem" or mud system they certainly have advantages but they are not necessary. If you read Richard Perrin's description of Tropicorium's appraoch they just use airlifts and chaeto. ¹ GFO can be used for phosphates and some systems may develop the bugs and stuff along with coral demand for phosphates and nitrates that a refugium may not be needed, Dr. Jaubert's methodology being one example having demonstated water quality can be maintained for years with no pumps, no skimming and no water changes.

Regrading nutrients in reef systems I am definitely at odds with the myth reefs are low nutrient systems and the associated "ULNS" methodologies. Here's a quote from Charles Delbeek (Nov/Dec. 2010 issue of "Coral" pg 127) "Though reefs are often described as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high . . . Our crystal clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs." This was echoed in a conversation between Dr. Heslinga (ipsf.com) and Patrick Castille (aquacultureranch.com) I listened in on at Nextwave 2011, Dallas, TX. Dr. Heslinga went on in his presentation to show growth rates of juvenile Tridacna spp. clams in his aquaculture facility in Palau were quadrupled with the addition of inorganic nitrogen fertilizers. Other research shows corals remove ammonium compounds from water specifically to feed their zooxanthellae and do not remove it if the coral does not contain them ², making corals an important part of the filtration process in my view removing ammonium BEFORE the bacteria in the nitrogen cycle start to break it down into nitrites and nitrates. Also intriguing is some may also utilize symbiotic cyanobacteria to fix nitrogen into nitrates³

1 Coral June/July 2005

2 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/umrsmas/bullmar/1979/00000029/00000004/art00011

3 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15310901

[Timfish]

Here's a question; What is the metric being used to determine how well a skimmer will perform? With lights we have PAR and Lux meters to measure the output. Pumps have a rating of so many gallons per hour at different preasure heads and can this can be measured fairly accurately and easily. To the best of my knowledge there is no metric used by skimmer manufacturers to show thier skimmer is better than another.

[ckyuv]

JeeZ Tim I was wondering what was takin you so long

[Timfish]

JeeZ Tim I was wondering what was takin you so long

I am sorry Patrick. I will try not to let it happen again. I just got distracted chasing links in some of the research papers I double checked which linked to other research papers which . . .

[subsea]

I prefer skimmer less operations. I would not consider a high nutrient system as mine (nitrates>20ppm) ideal for light loving SPS. I prefer a variety of filter feeders, including Sea Apples and Flame Scallops.. I use macro algae for nutrient export and run lower light levels below 50 PAR. These systems require the least maintenance and cost to operate. For me, these systems run best when feed heavy.

Considerations before removing protein skimmer would be oxygen depletion at night time. A surface skimmer as a drain to sump is the single biggest aid in maintaining dissolved oxygen. Surface agitation with strong circulation at surface also elevates nighttime oxygen levels. I

[Neon Reefer]

Hey KJ420

I run a 28G JBJ CF closed system w/ no sump. I started w/ the little skimmer that came w/ the system. It did work and pulled some gunk, but it ran pretty dry and needed constant fooling with so I nixed it for an Aqua Euro USA Nano Skimmer II as this was the only Venturi style skimmer that would actually fit in the skimmer compartment. I liked it and it did pull a lot of stuff from tank for a while, I liked running it wet but I found it noisy and when it started blowing micro bubbles I decided to go skimmerless. My tank is mixed LPS / SPS and heavy on the LPS. Bio load is light / average w/ 4 Gobies and 2 Skunk cleaners and assorted Hermit crabs and snails. I feed lightly w/ 1/2 cube Mysis per day.

My pH on this tank has always been 7.9 - 8.2 and was concerned about pH change as well. But I found no change when I removed the wet running skimmer. They say changes on a nano system usually have more profound effects than on larger systems so there you go. And my Trates and Phates acrually went down when I stopped skimming and added a GFO reactor. I now run w/ 1 reactor loaded w/ 25 grams each GFO and GAC changed monthly, only other filtration is mechical sponge. I test w/ Red Sea Pro and can never detect any Trates or Phates on the color wheels, however I know the range is .02 for testing noise. So I can say they both run < .02ppm. I have 40 lbs of good rock in this tank and I have always beleived the rock does the work for you. I started 10% per week water changes in place of the skimming and this is when I saw my acros and monti really begin to grow at a much faster rate.Granted they are not colonies as this tank is barely 12 months old. However I made these changes 3 months ago and have as much growth in this time as the previous 6 months. My LPS has slowed a bit in growth however. No changes to lighting or total 750 GPH circulation. I beleive you can successfully run a llarger SPS tank w/o skimming if bio-load is small, stick w/ 1.5 lbs rock per gallon and you have good aireation, as can be accomplished both in DT with surface tension and in sump with a trickle system.

Really don't think an ULNS is required for good SPS growth. Don't want to starve these guys anyway. Just a stable LNS with very stable Alk and goood foundation elements. Great circulation and tons of light.